Boat buying blues (Rant)

[shortnsalty41]

This is more of a rant than anything else, however, I remain hopeful that maybe something in the form of advice can deliver me some guidance.
I have the "Boat Buying Blues". As I saved and worked, worked and saved and finally came to the point four long years after the sale of our first "learning sailboat" that we are ready to buy our first cruiser I am really discouraged.
For some of us, the types that come to these forums to seek knowledge we have not yet gained in the sailing world, a lot of things remain a mystery. The sailing world is full of so many varying opinions and styles that as an inexperienced sailor we are for lack of better words "lost at sea".
"You need a full keel", "You need a fin keel", "These pocket cruisers will take you around the world", "You can't do any kind of bluewater in a boat that size" etc. etc...yada yada. In a way, it's all contradictory because we see it with our own two eyes thanks to the wonderful world of Youtube and it's never-ending list of sailing channels.
Now I know we all have to make up our own minds but it is hard when you try to research to understand and learn what you can before making a very expensive mistake and find a ton of varying opinion rarely supported by fact.
I think back years ago to one of my favorites, "You need a fin keel in order to outrun storms".
From when I first decided that sailing was the way I would do my boating I have learned a great deal from reading, forum members, video and finally hands-on sailing, boat repairs running aground, dragging an anchor etc. however I am only still a greenhorn. Maybe just a shiny one nowadays.
Now ready to cast off into the next phase of sailing for me I find myself caught in a nasty channel, during a storm, with shifting tides and sharks all around. Yes, sharks or in other words "boat brokers". I am sure there are many out there that are as good and trustworthy as coast guard rescue swimmers but the ones I have encountered are as slippery as eels.
Like the one I made an appointment with to see a Tartan 37 and when we arrived were told: "that boat is in the other marina across the street and before we go there let me show you this..." Boat that costs 30,000 dollars more than the one you called about, is falling apart, is completely the opposite of what you're looking for and in reality isn't worth half the price of the Tartan as you can see here from the loose stanchions, sun-rotted blocks, ancient rigging, blah , blah , blah. That was just one broker.
I did say this was a rant. But I am trying to make it kind of entertaining to read although probably failing as much as I am to find a boat.
So here I am "shanghaied" in my search for: A boat I can live on with my better half for at least the 6 months a year we will be sailing her, for cruising Florida (keys and west coast) and of course the Bahamas. So yes I can pretty much get away with a lot of different boats with the right preparations and safety gear while keeping a careful eye on the weather but I am not looking to spend a fortune when I know three to four years down the road we will be looking to go further and need something better yet again for the years we might spend sailing to the Carribean or aiming towards the Pacific.
We have looked at a Cape Dory 28 (love it but the V-birth would cancel out a lot of "sleep habits" shall we call them and from what I read are slow and maybe not great in light wind), Pearson 30 Wanderer (loved it until we saw someone is trying to hide a lot with paint, got the boat for 2000, oops that slipped out, and is trying to sell the boat for 18,000), a sweet Southern Cross 28 (so salty and so so small inside and out), Pearson Triton loaded (also very small).....let me chime in also small is OK if it can also be Fast however we can do without speed if we get a certain level of comfort instead...Can we have our cake and eat it too? We saw so many others, Tartan 27(strong contender), Catalina 27 (just for the fun of it... and talk about small V-birth), should I mention the boats I was ready to throw my money into that have been listed for God only knows how long and now that I call to go see them have mysteriously in the same day "gone under contract" and "just got closed on but I have this boat that you showed no interest in and costs 30,000 more than the boat you are asking about".
In the last few puffs of my hot air that come steaming out of my hot head, I know there are a lot of good boats still out there. One thing that is making the search so hard is for a while longer we are continuing to work so I can not go chasing boats in other states and I sure as hell can not trust a "boat broker" to lure me to another state to see this "solid boat" with "nothing wrong with it" that is "turn key" with an engine that has only "9857 hours" on it.
If anyone made it this far I admire you for your will and patience and leave the following challenge to you : A cruiser/racer sailboat that is 30k or even better 8k, roomy enough for "sleep habits" in the V-birth, would prefer fast although could live with slow if it were like an Allied Seawind 32 ketch, is ALMOST turnkey and upgrades can come as they are afforded not needed, so not really looking for a project unless its 50 bucks needing only 5k and 6 months and of course no drafts over 6 feet and 6 feet would be pushing it as the Bahamas can become our permanent cruising grounds so 4.5 or less would be ideal.
P.S. I am sorry.

[sailndoug]

Nice rant! Don't believe everything you hear, just see what's been done before in which boats. For 2 people, and this is just me, I'd find something at 32', probably more like 35'. You'll have your "sleep habits" options as well as some alone spaces...
Good luck, just don't give up, it's out there.
Doug
CSY 44 Walkthrough

[sagablu]

You think buying a boat is hard, wait until you try owning one. You will long for the day.....

[AiniA]

Unfortunately a lot of people offering advice on these forums don't know what they are talking about other than parroting what they have read in this book or that blog. There are some folks here who have done a lot of sailing both coastal and offshore. What you need to do is sort the wheat from the chaff. One thing I have discovered in my sailing, especially off the beaten track, is that people are cruising, happily and successfully on just about kind of boat you could mention - fibreglass, steel, even wood, long keel/fin keel, ketch/sloop/cutter, etc, etc. I have done a couple of counts of the boat lists for events like the ARC and Sail Indonesia and it is remarkable how much variation there is in boats being used.

Don't get me started with brokers. Some are great and some you can't trust. Sorting is again the hard bit.

[JimsCAL]

With your desires, I would be looking for a boat in the 30 to 35 foot range with a shoal keel, wing keel or keel/centerboard. If your budget is $20k to $30k, there are some decent options from the late 70s to early-mid 80s. If you really want to stay under $10k then you are looking at smaller and older (unless its a project).

[Stu Jackson]

Any buying tips?
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Stu/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
One other thing: be prepared to cry. Really. Unless you only deal with yachtworld type or checks, you will eventually be presented with a boat that has been sadly neglected. You WILL cry when you see some of these, which will most likely be presented "as is". Many of us have spent a year or more looking for what eventually became "our boat" (in my case, twice, in 1987 for a Catalina 25, and in 1997-8 for our current then 12 year old boat). In both cases we saw some horrible, scary and depressing examples of what the PO thought were "improvements" which sent us into the three or four stages of grief. Very disappointing, but then, when you find "your boat" you will KNOW it's the right one. How? You'll leave the first viewing of it with this sh*t-eating BIG GRIN on your face.

Happy hunting.





and


Boat Buying Questions

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yeah, I was going to say it sounds like you are describing a Catalina 34. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

I'm biased though. [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Stu/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/Stu/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/Stu/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

And they are hard to find. Those of us who have them tend to keep them. When I moved to BC I sailed her up from SF.

We continually see questions like this. "What boat should I/we buy???" regardless of the qualifiers, some better than others.

The reality is that there are simply so many boats available for sale that the question is practically and realistically unanswerable.

We don't know what these folks like, and "like" has a LOT of impact. Some folks dislike certain brands, just visually. It's a reality.

Buying a used boat has a LOT of serendipity involved. Timing is everything. Cost, when reasonably budgeted, rarely is. Just read all the "I have X $$$ budgeted, what can I buy for it..." questions.

For example, Don's quoted post above is perfect: BOTH a C34 and C36 would meet the criteria. The 34 has an aft head and NO ONE is exposed to being only a thin plywood wall away from being pissed on when someone's in the head. The C36 has a fwd head, which I don't like in a seaway. The saloons are like night and day. But the boats have identical systems.

A good friend who had just spent two years perfecting their C34 jumped when another friend was selling their Hunter 356.

For the OP, when a question like this is asked, 99% of the time the answers are essentially "I love my boat, you will, too." Why is that? ‘Cuz we all bought what we liked and could afford. Some of us kept them (me: 20 years) others moved up to bigger but remember, fondly, their mid-30 footers. Some have even downsized.

And there are two ways to buy a boat:

1. I want a mid-30s for $X budget.
2. I want a [specific boat, C34] and I'll spend the time required to find one (I did).

One cannot do #2 without walking the docks and doing research to narrow down what YOU seem to desire, and, more importantly, dislike so as to avoid.

Oh, did I mention walk through transoms yet?

Good luck.

[JPA Cate]

Hello, shortnsalty41,

Small and fast doesn't go together very well for a 6 month home. It is that everything one does to a boat to make it more extended cruise worthy adds weight, and hampers "fast."

If you have decided on a type of boat you are interested in, that will narrow your search. Otherwise, make a list of what you require, to show to brokers. And be firm with them, do not go with them to look at a boat costing twice what you have to spend. Your list is also a broker filter. The broker who tells you "Such a boat does not exist" is not one who you want to spend your time with. [That actually happened to us, and that boat is the one I'm aboard right now.]

Generally speaking, there are tradeoffs you make, and the less expensive the vessel, the more that will be wrong with it. Start with a boat with "'good bones'', so go look at a lot and learn which in your size range have the most acceptable forepeak accommodations, and whatever other criteria you may have.

Just my opinion, but "'small and fast"' sort of would mean a catamaran, and your budget doesn't go there. The most plausible solution is that you guys buy a nice little pocket cruiser sailboat, and accept that while not fast, you enjoy her for her other qualities.

Ann

[Jammer]

Boats that will do what you want, and that are in turn-key condition (or "near turn-key", whatever) are well outside of your price range.

[Calif.Ted]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Boats that will do what you want, and that are in turn-key condition (or "near turn-key", whatever) are well outside of your price range.

Just as an example, I would expect some deficiencies in a Tartan 37 for $30,000 but not in a $130,000 Tartan 37.

“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better.”
― John Ruskin

[Nariel]

Hang in there and stay true to your dream. We spent 2 years looking/discussing the "right boat" and 1 year seriously shopping with two visits to Annapolis boat shows and several cross country trips to look at worthy candidates. It was fun and painful all at the same time!

To me, the most frustrating part was trying to actually hire a buyer's broker. I didn't want to hire the sleezy brokers, and the "good" recommended brokers wouldn't return emails or calls. Multiple follow up emails and calls later, I threw my hands in the air wondering why I was chasing around buyer's brokers to work for me who would be expected to be paid an 8-10% commission.

So, we went back to shopping on our own and ended up purchasing our beautiful Nova directly from the seller. It was stressful to boot trying to negotiate and navigate all the paperwork by myself.

The moral here is to recognize your rant is totally justified. As far as selection, I would strongly encourage realizing that the "perfect boat" does not exist. Figure out your criteria that matters and prioritize. Then find the boat that "ticks the most boxes."

More importantly though...stay true to your dream. Our Nova is all about "new" adventures, and she presents those on a daily basis -- good and bad.

[Jim Cate]

To amplify what Ann said in post 7 above:

After a couple of years of searching (we had been full time cruising for about 15 years at this point and had some well developed prejudices), we made up a printed list of features, and would present it to any broker we approached.

The list consisted of features that we felt to be essential, those that would be nice but were not requisite, and things that were unacceptable (deal breakers).

The first group included size range, hull design, rig design, tankage size, engine type, cockpit location, the sort of performance numbers we were looking for (SA to D etc) and perhaps others that I have forgotten.

The second group included electronics fitted, , propeller type (folding/feathering), watermaker, solar/wind generating, battery bank size and type, and so on. These are all things that can be altered after the fact without major changes in the boat.

The third group included saying no split rigs, no ferrocement hulls, no center cockpits, no full keels, no saildrives, no boats built in some Oriental yards, no petrol engines, no off brand engines, and a few other things perhaps (this was a long time ago!).

We got varied responses when we presented the list. Some brokers were appreciative, saying things like "I wish all our customers were as well informed and organized as you are". Others hardly looked at the list and promptly tried to sell us unsuitable to us boats. And as she said, one chap (at the brokerage at the Royal Prince Alfred YC) read through it and said "get out of here and don't waste my time... such a boat does not exist". Our current boat (bought via word of mouth and no brokerage) met 21 out of the 22 items on the list. That brokerage, BTW, soon ceased to exist!

If we were to want to buy again, I'd do the same sort of preparation; you might consider doing so as well.

Jim

PS Our approximate budget was included of course, including a "won't go higher no matter what" value.

[sailorcherry]

Imho, at 30k you shouldn't be going to brokers. For one, they get 10%...of course they.are going to push the higher priced boat. Secondly, most of them suck, sorry, I know there are some good ones but in my experience and observation from fellow sailing friends many lie and you end up doing the work they are suppose to do.

That budget is sailboatlistings.com and craigslist boats. What have you found there? Where are you looking?

I prefer fin. For a couple and your budget at 30' a Catalina or Newport 30 are probably the most spacious. After that I would look at 32'-34'.
A project I would consider would be a fin keel boat with engine problems that you can easily transom mount an outboard...the rest of the boat may be in good condition but it gets a deep discount for the dud inboard easily fixed with an o/b. Fin keel so she will sail more often than the full and also easier to dock with the outboard. That's what I have suggested to wannabes with the 10k budget looking at 28'-34'.

[sailorcherry]

Here ya go!

This first one, a Pearson 323 for just $7500! Is an example of a low cost fin keel boat with a nice outboard (4-stroke Yamaha 9.9hp. my favorite, the HT prop really has oomph).
https://staugustine.craigslist.org/b...596655804.html

https://jacksonville.craigslist.org/...650296794.html

https://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/73451

https://jacksonville.craigslist.org/...613980491.html

https://staugustine.craigslist.org/b...627158083.html

[shortnsalty41]

I want to thank everyone for the responses.
Sailing on with my search I would like opinions on Endeavours . I see a good number of them in the searches in the sizes and price ranges that fit my needs.
Mainly intrested in the way they sail. Please tell me they don't like to be sailed on their feet.

[Cheechako]

It is always a dilemma buying a boat, not matter how experienced you are. It seems each boat has something to offer, and at least one major flaw in design or condition!

Personally I think there is way too much made of "performance". Sailboats are slow. "Fast" sailboats are slow. Fast sailboats are faster with a crew of 8 on board whose only goal is to tweek .05 more knot out of it by flying sails that are uncontrollable at times. Is that you? You get used to moving at an average pace. Forget light air performance ....unless you love tinkering and getting frustrated. The boat...It's a tool..... Like a hammer! Start the engine at your minimum speed you can live with . Mine is 3.5 knots ....depending on schedule.

I always look for a good basic boat; good hull , good rig/sails, good engine. That can eliminate a lot of potential work. I avoid anything with a cored hull or bolt on keel. That eliminates risk right there. Nothing wrong with a Cape Dory. Beware that anything in your price range needs work. I bought a $335k boat once and it turned out even it needed a lot of work!