Block Island Anchor Drag/Tow $$$

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by tanksalot

A few points:

1. $16,000 for a tow on the Great Salt Pond!!!?? When will it stop? How about $160,000? Or 1.6 Million? If there's no connection between reality and the costs involved, who will set and when will there be some limit?

2. If you have a TowBoat U.S. policy, or SeaTow or whatever, and some towboat operator levies SALVAGE charges because of a situation, the policy you have is meaningless.

3. The invoice I received (after I requested one) said "Unmanned and running free (dragging anchor) in Great Salt Pond, Block Island". This HAD been the case when the good Samaritan saw and tied up my vessel. It was NOT the case when the tow boat operator came on the scene.

4. Regarding your statement "Perhaps because the boat was not actually loose at the time of tow, the owner got a break!!". If a boat is not actually loose, on what authority can the towboat operator tow it?? If I don't have the authority to take the contents of your wallet, and I only take half your money, am I "giving you a break?".

5. When you said " the other owner is still arguing", are you saying that after over 6 months he's still negotiating with the towing company? I will agree that that kind of commitment to a protracted battle is a significant commitment.

You're flogging a dead horse. Learn to anchor and move on before this becomes an obsession. Or is it too late?

[chrisjs]

I did not mean to indicate I think the practice is fair. Only that it could have been much worse (more expensive). We always put down minimum 5x scope of all chain in the GT. Salt Pond with a big Rocna, and always look for the shallow water. By the way, the other boat has refused to pay, and so far no action.

[psneeld]

Until the conversation between the "other sailboat" and the towboat operator is fully understood or out in the open...there is no way to intelligently discuss the matter.

If that "other boat" wanted to move on and released the sailboat to the towboat with "no conditions" then the towboat is fully in the right to do and charge what he did.

The "other boat" could have done the same as the towboat did for free...why didn't that happen? Why didn't the "other boat" reanchor the OP's boat? would have been easy at that point and really no liability if the OP's boat had drug into him...at that point he's a good sam.

Something isn't right here and blaming the tow guy is a idiotic and as saying the charge is idiotic.

Like so many internet tiffs...there's only one side of the story here.....

[JK n Smitty]

Originally Posted by tanksalot

A few points:

1. $16,000 for a tow on the Great Salt Pond!!!?? When will it stop? How about $160,000? Or 1.6 Million? If there's no connection between reality and the costs involved, who will set and when will there be some limit?

It's not a tow at that point, it's salvage. To put a limit on it you would have to change maritime law.

2. If you have a TowBoat U.S. policy, or SeaTow or whatever, and some towboat operator levies SALVAGE charges because of a situation, the policy you have is meaningless.

Correct, that is when your salvage insurance kicks in. Do you have insurance? With about of your value, I might not. With a boat worth $100K, you bet your a$$ I would.

3. The invoice I received (after I requested one) said "Unmanned and running free (dragging anchor) in Great Salt Pond, Block Island". This HAD been the case when the good Samaritan saw and tied up my vessel. It was NOT the case when the tow boat operator came on the scene.

Again, you have no idea what the good Samaritan did. The likely course of action was that he called the harbor master about your boat dragging and to prevent damage to either his boat or your boat or both, temporarily tied it up until someone came to help. The harbor master either alerted the tow company or the tow company was monitoring the VHF. IT IS NOT REASONABLE TO EXPECT SOMEONE ELSE TO HOLD ONTO YOUR BOAT INDEFINATELY! Stop thinking he was willing to do so, unless you have actually talked to the good Samaritan.

If you insist on continuing this argument, then why haven't you called the harbor master? That should have been the first call you made. Or did you call him and you don't agree with what he told you?

4. Regarding your statement "Perhaps because the boat was not actually loose at the time of tow, the owner got a break!!". If a boat is not actually loose, on what authority can the towboat operator tow it?? If I don't have the authority to take the contents of your wallet, and I only take half your money, am I "giving you a break?".

See above.

5. When you said " the other owner is still arguing", are you saying that after over 6 months he's still negotiating with the towing company? I will agree that that kind of commitment to a protracted battle is a significant commitment.

It is likely not the owner who is still negotiating. It's probably his insurance company.

[psneeld]

While we are talking salvage...

Just for the gang who have insurance and care about details...

Read your insurance policy carefully and understand where the "payment for salvage" comes from.

In many policies....it comes from the bottom line of agreed upon value.

So if you have a boat insured for $100,000 and it sinks in some harbor like Great Salt Pond......The raising it could be say $10,000 to $20,000 depending on depth and complexity...maybe only $5000 if a smaller boat in shallow water...can't say as every job is different. Then say some of your engine oil leaked and some of your diesel made it to the rocks and there another $5,000 worth of material, labor, and disposal fees.

That $15,000-$25,000 comes out of the $100,000 you have your boat insured for so be careful what your policy says and what you are expecting to walk away with.

If the salvage is really tricky in a gravely sensitive environmental area...you could walk away with nothing.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by psneeld

While we are talking salvage...

Just for the gang who have insurance and care about details...

Read your insurance policy carefully and understand where the "payment for salvage" comes from.

In many policies....it comes from the bottom line of agreed upon value.

So if you have a boat insured for $100,000 and it sinks in some harbor like Great Salt Pond......The raising it could be say $10,000 to $20,000 depending on depth and complexity...maybe only $5000 if a smaller boat in shallow water...can't say as every job is different. Then say some of your engine oil leaked and some of your diesel made it to the rocks and there another $5,000 worth of material, labor, and disposal fees.

That $15,000-$25,000 comes out of the $100,000 you have your boat insured for so be careful what your policy says and what you are expecting to walk away with.

If the salvage is really tricky in a gravely sensitive environmental area...you could walk away with nothing.

This is the pearl in this whole thread so far. Thanks.

As for the OP... 2:1 scope??? Beyond belief! I wouldn't anchor for lunch and stay aboard with only 2:1. You got away easy. Learn to anchor or don't do it. It starts with judgment, and if there's not enough room for adequate scope or you can't get a strong set, don't do it.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

This is the pearl in this whole thread so far. Thanks.

As for the OP... 2:1 scope??? Beyond belief! I wouldn't anchor for lunch and stay aboard with only 2:1. You got away easy. Learn to anchor or don't do it. It starts with judgment, and if there's not enough room for adequate scope or you can't get a strong set, don't do it.

my point from the beginning...we are not all pirates...

[tanksalot]

There's two "approaches" to discussing this topic. One is to look at my errors, look at the inconvenience and hazard I caused other boaters, and claim that whatever punishment I got was deserved. Make the charge $6750 and it's fair, because I made errors. The "salvage" aspect makes it possible to have the punishment match or exceed the crime.

The other approach is the "what does the law say" approach. I understand, clearly, that there WAS a salvage situation. The good Samaritan "salvaged" my vessel. He was inconvenienced, called the harbormaster, and Safe/Sea took my vessel away.

What I've yet to get clear is under what authority my vessel can get towed away when not in peril.

I am not disputing that I had no right to inconvenience the Samaritan. He was gone the next morning and the previous evening he (probably) called the harbormaster to pick up my boat because he wanted the peace of mind that he could leave when he planned. I am not saying that I shouldn't pay for my errors.

What I AM questioning is whether $675 is an equitable amount for (approx.) 45 minutes of towing time and whether there was a legal justification for taking possession of my vessel. Most people on this forum seem to feel the $675 is fair, but I've yet to get clarification on how, legally, the tower could take possession of my vessel and tow it away.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by tanksalot

There's two "approaches" to discussing this topic. One is to look at my errors, look at the inconvenience and hazard I caused other boaters, and claim that whatever punishment I got was deserved. Make the charge $6750 and it's fair, because I made errors. The "salvage" aspect makes it possible to have the punishment match or exceed the crime.

The other approach is the "what does the law say" approach. I understand, clearly, that there WAS a salvage situation. The good Samaritan "salvaged" my vessel. He was inconvenienced, called the harbormaster, and Safe/Sea took my vessel away.

What I've yet to get clear is under what authority my vessel can get towed away when not in peril.

I am not disputing that I had no right to inconvenience the Samaritan. He was gone the next morning and the previous evening he (probably) called the harbormaster to pick up my boat because he wanted the peace of mind that he could leave when he planned. I am not saying that I shouldn't pay for my errors.

What I AM questioning is whether $675 is an equitable amount for (approx.) 45 minutes of towing time and whether there was a legal justification for taking possession of my vessel. Most people on this forum seem to feel the $675 is fair, but I've yet to get clarification on how, legally, the tower could take possession of my vessel and tow it away.

more than equitable...you should see what gets billed in all kinds of occupations...try looking at a medical bill.

If the good sam wanted to get rid of your boat there was 2 choices...call or set it adrift...he was well in his rights to do either.

until we hear 2 other voices in this discussion...it's all just trash talk.

[sailorboy1]

I think we are back to page 1 of the thread:

you are just a cry baby!

you aren't going to be happy till you get some type of answer that only you seem to know

we aren't lawyers, we are boaters, if you want law advise you know when to find it

you strike me as the type that if the good boater that saved your boat had scatched your paint job saving your boat you would be trying to get money from him to fix it

I used to think all the bad anchoring people I read about here were made up stories, but now I now better

[tanksalot]

Originally Posted by psneeld

until we hear 2 other voices in this discussion...it's all just trash talk.

How about an email from the owner of a boat that saw the whole thing? The morning after the incident , I looked for the Samaritan, but he had left. I found a bystander who had seen everything, and I got his email. This is the email I received from him. Names have been obliterated, but the rest is verbatim; Bystander's boat is XXXX, My boat is YYYY and Samaritan's boat is ZZZZ.

"Here is what I saw at Block Island last weekend in late afternoon Saturday 6th July 2013. I just happened to look out from XXXX anchored just northwest of YYYYY in about 15-17 knots of southerly breeze when I saw YYYYY dragging her anchor with her tender attached behind. I shouted as loud as I could to YYYYY but nobody came on deck. Soon YYYYY lightly brushed against ZZZZZ downwind from her. Enough of a bump to get the crew of ZZZZ on deck. They grabbed YYYY's pulpit and attached a line so that YYYYY could safely ride behind ZZZZZ. I was pleased how ZZZZZ handled the situation and retired below. Later to my surprise I saw Seatow coming along and taking YYYYY from ZZZZZ although there was no evidence of any distress, damage or dragging to ZZZZZ. YYYYY seemed perfectly happy riding behind ZZZZZ."

[nimblemotors]

If the good sam wanted to get rid of your boat there was 2 choices...call or set it adrift...he was well in his rights to do either.

I don't think so, once he saved the boat, he can't just let it go adrift again, that would be creating an intentional hazard.

My opinion is the OP has a case to challenge the charge, it is probably double that of a reasonable amount, but sometimes you just have bad luck. If it was $6,750, no doubt I would be in court over it, $675 I get pissed off and complain but move on, and of course that is why they get away with it. So one can turn the table and pay only half, but I gather the CC was already charged and boat released, so not much you can do now.

[Sandero]

I wonder why the guys who tied the OPs boat off didn't just wait for OP to return... assuming his own boat was doing fine with the OP's tied off to his stern? He didn't have to... of course... but he could assume that the OP would be returning to the boat at some time... and as it was late afternoon, it was likely that he would be back BEFORE he needed to depart. I don't recall the details and so I don't rememnber when OP arrived via launch I presume to discover his boat missing and probably learned from GS what about the tow. Or was this late in the evening?

I found a dink on the beach one morning in Newport at King's park where I was walking the dog. I recognized it as belong to the boat up wind of me... it someone got free and drifted to the beach. I towed back to my boat and tied it to the stern and went below to eat my waiting breakfast... intending to tow it back to the owner.

But before I finished my breakfast I was interrupted by him circling and shouting I had his dink. I came on deck and told him I know and was just having breakfast and intended ot tow it back to him.

No I didn't insist on salvage rights... he came along side and I passed his wife the painter... He told me he thought a drunk charter guest he had and untied the dink... after he was removed from the boat by the police or harbor master when the charter operator had called for help the previous night.

Maybe not an analogous situation... I could have called the harbor master and have him deal with the dink. Why bother?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by tanksalot

How about an email from the owner of a boat that saw the whole thing? The morning after the incident , I looked for the Samaritan, but he had left. I found a bystander who had seen everything, and I got his email. This is the email I received from him. Names have been obliterated, but the rest is verbatim; Bystander's boat is XXXX, My boat is YYYY and Samaritan's boat is ZZZZ.

"Here is what I saw at Block Island last weekend in late afternoon Saturday 6th July 2013. I just happened to look out from XXXX anchored just northwest of YYYYY in about 15-17 knots of southerly breeze when I saw YYYYY dragging her anchor with her tender attached behind. I shouted as loud as I could to YYYYY but nobody came on deck. Soon YYYYY lightly brushed against ZZZZZ downwind from her. Enough of a bump to get the crew of ZZZZ on deck. They grabbed YYYY's pulpit and attached a line so that YYYYY could safely ride behind ZZZZZ. I was pleased how ZZZZZ handled the situation and retired below. Later to my surprise I saw Seatow coming along and taking YYYYY from ZZZZZ although there was no evidence of any distress, damage or dragging to ZZZZZ. YYYYY seemed perfectly happy riding behind ZZZZZ."

So what difference will it make if you were or were not in a salvage situation? Are you going back to sue Seatow? Sue boat ZZZZZ? Sue Block Island? Have everyone on the forum admit you are right and the tow boat is wrong? Make everyone on the forum that dissed you apologize?

None of these is going to put money back in your pocket. You are tilting at windmills. You can keep this thread going for years complaining or you can let it go, learn the lesson and move on. Your choice.

[goboatingnow]

Pages and pages of people saying the same thing , talk about a dead horse !


Dave