Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

No matter what the rules and laws are.
It’s the law of TONNAGE. Get out of a big ships way as they always win the game of chicken.

Oh well we've tried

Dave

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

If you mean regular TSS lanes you are not required to stay out of then , merely that you must not impede vessels in them. Of course local rules may override things.

Dave

We are required to cross them at right angles and get clear ASAP!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

No matter what the rules and laws are.
It’s the law of TONNAGE. Get out of a big ships way as they always win the game of chicken.

Here we go again . . .

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

We are required to cross them at right angles and get clear ASAP!

Yes that's for crossing them , nothing stoping you going in them with the traffic flow. ( as long as you don't impede )

Dave

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes that's for crossing them , nothing stoping you going in them with the traffic flow. ( as long as you don't impede )

Dave

The rule in Seattle is the same. The TSS is wide enough that a sail boat will not impede unless the big guys are racing 3 abreast. I've only ever seen them 2 abreast racing up from Elliot Bay to reach the turn north of Shilshole. However, there is plenty of water to sail outside the TSS. At 100 yards from Shilshole and way outside the TSS it's >50 fathoms so for me I was never compelled to sail up and down the lanes. And we usually crossed at right angles under power unless we had >5 miles visibility and no big guys in sight.

The traffic controllers have radars located all over and if you listen on 14 you will often hear big guys coming down the sound ask for a traffic report for the area north of Elliot Bay. That's because they can't see until they make the turn south. So they can and do get a detailed report of all big traffic and any pleasure craft that might become a problem. So just because you don't see them does not mean they don't know about you. That area is extremely well run by the vessel traffic team in Seattle. AIS has made it even safer. If you frequent that area I highly recommend having a transponder rather that a receiver only. If you have a doubt about where the big guys are a pleasure craft can contact the vessel traffic center on VHF and they will respond professionally. And always monitor the radio as required by the local rules.

[Jammer Six]

Has anyone here ever contacted the Seattle vessel traffic team?

I've never heard of them.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Jammer Six

Has anyone here ever contacted the Seattle vessel traffic team?

I've never heard of them.

This is their web site http://www.uscg.mil/d13/psvts/.

You should learn about the system if you are sailing in the sound. It is absolutely maddening to be out and hear the vessel traffic guys trying to raise a sail boat that is impeding traffic obliviously. I'm not suggesting you might have done that but just that all sailors in the area should know about the VTS and how to contact them. Also, you are required to monitor VHF in case they want to talk to you.

[s/v Beth]

BTW- I hate the Sound for this very reason. The last time I was tacking and a freighter came up on me in front of Seattle I swore I would never do that again. And I haven't. I sail from the Strait and north. I don't think they miss me a bit .

[Panope]

I had the opportunity to view a sailing vessel and two Washington state ferries pass near each other just outside of Elliot bay (Seattle) this afternoon.

My vantage point was from a small aircraft at 1000 feet of altitude passing just in front of all three vessels. This allowed me to see not only their current positions and courses, but also what they had been doing previously by sighting down their wake.

-The sailing vessel (40ft? sloop) was northbound, close hauled at perhaps 6 kts.
-The two ferries were both eastbound and parallel to each other - tracks about 1/4 mille apart.
-One ferry was about a half a mile ahead of the other.
-Both ferries at similar speed - 15 to 20 knots (or whatever they normally cruise at).
-Both ferries destination was the downtown Seattle ferry terminal - dead ahead.
-The leading ferry made a very slight turn to port and passed just ahead of the sailing vessel.
-The trailing ferry made a very slight turn to starboard and passed just behind the sailing vessel.
-The sailing vessel did not alter coarse. Its wake was strait as an arrow.

I was not close enough to see the expressions on the faces of the sailboat crew. My feeling is that everyone involved felt this was a normal day on the water.

Steve

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Jammer Six

Has anyone here ever contacted the Seattle vessel traffic team?

I've never heard of them.

Yes - many times when going down Juan de Fuca at night. In 2000 both Seattle traffic and Tofino traffic were very helpful when we were adrift at the J buoy for 1.5 days in fog. They let the inbound and outbound tarffic know we were there.

We had no transmission and could not power out of the way.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes that's for crossing them , nothing stoping you going in them with the traffic flow. ( as long as you don't impede )

Dave

It's the position of Dover VTS that you cannot sail in the Dover Straits TSS without impeding commercial traffic. You will get an earful from VTS for trying, and will be ordered into the ITZ. I don't know about other places but Dover Straits handles 400 ships a day - a ship every four minutes. Sailing in that TSS is like riding a bicycle on a German autobahn - insane even if it might theoretically be legal. That's why the ITZ is there.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes that's for crossing them , nothing stoping you going in them with the traffic flow. ( as long as you don't impede )

Dave

I don't know about your area, but certainly in and around the Helsingør/Helsingborg strait, there is a "No Yachts" rule. You can cross there, but you are not allowed to sail i the same direction as the big ships in the TSS.

The charts are clearly marked with a "Yachts" area, and this area has its own set of buoy age

[FlyingCloud1937]

USCG: 13th District - Guardians of the Pacific Northwest

A brief introduction,
The Vessel Traffic Service Puget Sound (VTS) is a marine traffic service operated by the United States Coast Guard in Seattle. Also known as "Seattle Traffic," we provide navigational assistance to the maritime community of Puget Sound similar to the methods used by the FAA in providing air traffic control to aviators.
We provide our service by use of the following methods:
1. Radar surveillance -12 strategically located radar stations from Cape Flattery, through Rosario Strait in the San Juan Islands, to Tacoma.
2. Vessel movement reporting -VHF-FM radio channels 5A, and 14.
3. Traffic separation scheme (TSS) -buoys, and charted traffic lanes that direct the flow of traffic.

The VTS monitors 230,000 vessel movements a year in the 3,500 sq. mi. Puget Sound area. These vessel transits are comprised of mainly large commercial and government craft such as freighters, container ships, tankers, coastal freighters, tugs, fishing vessels, tour boats, Navy ships, and ferries. All of these vessels are required to participate in whole, or in part with the VTS under 33 Code of Federal Regulations Part 161.

320,000/365=877 vessel movements per day.


WOW


Lloyd

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's the position of Dover VTS that you cannot sail in the Dover Straits TSS without impeding commercial traffic. You will get an earful from VTS for trying, and will be ordered into the ITZ. I don't know about other places but Dover Straits handles 400 ships a day - a ship every four minutes. Sailing in that TSS is like riding a bicycle on a German autobahn - insane even if it might theoretically be legal. That's why the ITZ is there.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

[SIZE=+2][COLOR=#ff0000][I]


320,000/365=877 vessel movements per day.


WOW


Lloyd

Puget Sound is a very busy place with a lot of ferry traffic, and surely very challenging for a sailor.

But in terms of ship transits, it is not at all in the same league as the world's busiest places like the Dover Straits, the Bosphorous, or the Straits of Malacca, which carry about 400, 150, and 137 ship transits per day respectively. Most of the traffic of several of the world's biggest ports, like Rotterdam, Antwerp and Hamburg, pass through the Dover Straits. Rotterdam alone handles more than 400 million tons of cargo a year; the only U.S. West Coast port to make the top 100 world ports is Los Angeles, which handles about 60 million tons a year -- see: http://aapa.files.cms-plus.com/PDFs/...NGS%202011.pdf.

Puget Sound has about 4500 ship transits a year, or 12 a day; see: https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publicat...ns/1308001.pdf

That should give you an idea of the relative scale. Ship transits are not at all the same as vessel movements.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Puget Sound is a very busy place with a lot of ferry traffic, and surely very challenging for a sailor.

But in terms of ship transits, it is not at all in the same league as the world's busiest places like the Dover Straits, the Bosphorous, or the Straits of Malacca, which carry about 400, 150, and 137 ship transits per day respectively. Most of the traffic of several of the world's biggest ports, like Rotterdam, Antwerp and Hamburg, pass through the Dover Straits. Rotterdam alone handles more than 400 million tons of cargo a year; the only U.S. West Coast port to make the top 100 world ports is Los Angeles, which handles about 60 million tons a year -- see: http://aapa.files.cms-plus.com/PDFs/...NGS%202011.pdf.

Puget Sound has about 4500 ship transits a year, or 12 a day; see: https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publicat...ns/1308001.pdf

That should give you an idea of the relative scale. Ship transits are not at all the same as vessel movements.

The sound between Helsingør/Helsingborg is just over 100 ships per day (sound is 2.25NM wide) but the crossing ferries average a couple of hundred crossings per day also