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Old 26-11-2020, 17:42   #16
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
"AP" and "racing" should not appear in the same post


RROS. Rule 52: A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew.



The rudder is a "movable hull appendage"
So effectively electric winches are prohibited as well? Even to hoist the main?
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Old 26-11-2020, 17:53   #17
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

Given that at 20nm from the mark, the mark is not visible for the first few hours anyway, an AP will set the correct course to a waypoint but as already noted, it may be in violation of the race rules. If not against the race rules, in my experience the AP will steer a far better/more efficient course over several hours than an average human can. APs donít get tired or lose concentration

But adding the waypoint to your GPS will provide great info as far as course-to-steer, cross-track error, etc. so hand-helming to the mark can be pretty straight forward and accurate.

Unless of course the race rules prohibit the use of GPS?
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Old 26-11-2020, 18:14   #18
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

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So effectively electric winches are prohibited as well? Even to hoist the main?
Generally the mainsail is raised before the race begins. And after the start, use a winch handle instead of the button.
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Old 27-11-2020, 11:02   #19
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

I wrote a whole long diatribe defending my position then decided WTF and deleted it. Some rules are just stupid.
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Old 27-11-2020, 14:45   #20
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

Every race or cruise in company or rally or beer can race or whatever will have a Notice of Race and/or Sailing Instructions for that race or for a series of races. There will be a reference to ColRegs and the current version of the Racing Rules of Sailing, then any variations or additions for that particular race or series.

When you register for a race or series you accept the rules that apply. If itís not against any rule for that event, then you can do it. If it is against the rules, no one is stopping you but why would you?

Rules against stored energy used to be common, but now with the proliferation of electric and hydraulic winches and rams those rules have faded away. Automatic pilots are generally prohibited in fully crewed racing and allowed for short and single handed racing and most cruising rallies. Setting a waypoint has never been prohibited, where electronic navigation is allowed. And so on.
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Old 27-11-2020, 19:45   #21
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Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

Re rules. If the OP will let us know the race those of us with experience can help read the sailing instructions and rules for previous editions and provide some concrete guidance re autopilot, electric winches, stored energy, and crew size.
Itís not hard and I, for one, would love to help. Short handed racing is part of the future.

Meaning if the race is mixed full crew and short handed I would suggest the sailing instructions can take the crew size and stored energy limits into account.
Often a race will allow short crew to use autopilots and not allow that to full crew.
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Old 27-11-2020, 19:58   #22
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

All a autopilot is a task reduction tool, ideally a trained human is going to be the best bet, but if you are single handed, use the AP when you need to focus your attention somewhere else, be it trimming, or be it heads down planning.
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Old 28-11-2020, 11:33   #23
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

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All a autopilot is a task reduction tool, ideally a trained human is going to be the best bet, but if you are single handed, use the AP when you need to focus your attention somewhere else, be it trimming, or be it heads down planning.
Therein lies the rub. I guess that the intention of the rule is to ensure that the skills of the crew will influence the result. You’re a better, more experienced helmsperson than I am so you should have an advantage which is essentially fair. An AP removes that advantage to some extent because a very inexperienced helmsperson can direct a boat pretty well by simply pointing it at a waypoint. I get that.

But what advantage to the knowledge/experience base does an electric winch provide? Does it help me, the inexperienced sailor to trim my jib more effectively than the veteran racer on the boat next door? Not at all. All it does is provide the energy needed for me to set a jib or main sail to the limit of my expertise, it doesn’t improve my sailing skills. It doesn’t give me any edge. The jib car could still be in the wrong position. The leach could still be wide open. The main traveller could still be to far to leeward. If I don’t know these things, how does an electric winch help me? I don’t get it.

BTW, this is an academic argument from me - I neither race my boat nor own an electric winch.
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Old 28-11-2020, 12:14   #24
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

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Ap would be on nav/sail. Nav gets you to a specific point taking into account current etc, /snip/.
\


How does it do that?
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Old 28-11-2020, 18:26   #25
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

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Originally Posted by CassidyNZ View Post
So effectively electric winches are prohibited as well? Even to hoist the main?

Yes.

Assuming you are hoisting the main after the preparatory signal, it has to be by hand. Before the preparatory signal, you're not racing and you can hoist it however you want.


(Rule 55 is the only one that applies when not actually racing)
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Old 28-11-2020, 18:37   #26
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

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But what advantage to the knowledge/experience base does an electric winch provide?
...
BTW, this is an academic argument from me - I neither race my boat nor own an electric winch
It's all about crew v crew.


Apparently you've never taken part in a tacking duel for hours on end. If you had, you'd know why an electric winch would be an unfair advantage compared to the crew manually grinding tack after tack.
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Old 29-11-2020, 11:32   #27
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

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It's all about crew v crew.


Apparently you've never taken part in a tacking duel for hours on end.
Actually I have but when I was 45 years younger. Which raises the point . . . .

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If you had, you'd know why an electric winch would be an unfair advantage compared to the crew manually grinding tack after tack.
Canít argue with that but how is it different to a tacking duel between a skilled crew of 70-year-olds (like me ) racing against a skilled crew of 24-year olds? An unfair advantage is eminently present and simply discriminates on the basis of age. The 70-yo crew potentially has more collective experience (skill) that the 24-yo crew but have no chance of winning a tacking duel.

Yeah, I know you canít smooth out all the bumps in life that rules create but truth is, the 24-yoís can buy electric winches if they feel disadvantaged but the 70-yoís canít buy back the vigour of youth.
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Old 29-11-2020, 20:19   #28
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Re: Best time to mark: using AP or by hand?

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Actually I have but when I was 45 years younger. Which raises the point . . . .







Canít argue with that but how is it different to a tacking duel between a skilled crew of 70-year-olds (like me ) racing against a skilled crew of 24-year olds? An unfair advantage is eminently present and simply discriminates on the basis of age. The 70-yo crew potentially has more collective experience (skill) that the 24-yo crew but have no chance of winning a tacking duel.



Yeah, I know you canít smooth out all the bumps in life that rules create but truth is, the 24-yoís can buy electric winches if they feel disadvantaged but the 70-yoís canít buy back the vigour of youth.

Ahh, but itís well known (and proven in many different fields from sport through business and pleasure) that age and treachery can beat youth and vigour.
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