Best Sailboat For Me?

[Ardbeg]

I live in Kingston. If you wish to sail, east of Gananoque can be tough ( sorry Brockville). There are boats for rent in Kingston in the 30 ft range, specifically at Portsmouth, however, I think you need at least a year of practice, courses, certs, to be able to rent a boat safely. Nepean Club has lots of good sailors who could want crew.

[argonauta1]

At either the Nepean Yacht Club or the Britannia Yacht Club there are excellent learn to sail programs. If you are new to sailing the best way to develop the needed skills is to enroll in a dinghy course and get your White Sail Level 3. There is no better way to learn how to perform basic manoeuvers and come to understand all about points of sail. All the other bits about rules of the road etc will come with that experience.

Essential for the course to be done with your partner so the two of you can crew together on a larger boat. With that qualification, I would organize a bare boat charter with an instructor for the two of you. Bring the kid(s) as they need to learn how to just be on a sailing vessel.

As to buying a boat, put that off until you are in a position to make the judgement calls you have posed in your message. By then you will have developed a much better appreciation of what you and your family want in the way of a recreational vessel. As a cost consideration, a classic boat will be more expensive to maintain and if you are not a mister fix it type you might prefer to spend more time sailing than fixing. Good luck.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by aufdemwasser

I'm new to this forum, so I hope I'm posting this in the appropriate section. I'm considering taking up sailing and purchasing a boat, and I'd appreciate some recommendations as to the types of boats I should be considering. I live in Ottawa, Canada and would be keeping my boat at a sailing club near to where I live. Here is an idea of what I am after:

1. I'd like to sail locally (Ottawa & Eastern Ontario) with my wife and young daughter and I want to be able to do overnights, so beds, bathroom, kitchen, etc.

2. Ideally I'd like a classic boat or at least something in a classic style. For me, a big part of the appeal of sailing is the aesthetics, so I'd like something with a lot of wood, a cosy interior, with a vintage/antique look and feel.

3. Budget is around 50K (CAD) but lower would be better, if possible.

4. I'm pretty sure I want to buy used, since a big concern of mine is depreciation. This is another reason I'd like something classic - I feel it might hold its value better since if it is more rare?

Based on this info, can anyone help point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

Learning to sail first would be ideal...I didn't but had a friend that helped me get started.

My first boat was a bran-new Tanzer 22 with fixed keel in the San Fransico bay area outskirts. I taught myself how to sail via books (no Internet then) and then the family (twin sons) slowly lost interest and I became a solo sailor (I'm convinced that kids learn better amongst other kids.) We never spent a night out on the boat at anchor. My ex-wife loved the IDEA of sailing but not the real thing...so, consider that possibility happening. Start small and grow into a bigger boat if things go positive which is also good for learning.

Lastly, sailing is one side of the coin, boat ownership is the other side. You'll soon learn the difference.

Good Luck.

[Ixium]

I’m near Belleville. Went and bought a 60k, 40ft boat in Iroquois Ontario with no experience. My first time on this boat was with a buddy with just as much experience as me. We did a 21 hour motor to get it to its new home.

My marina is 3.1k per year, full amenities. Haul out and winter storage is 2k and put back in is 300. Insurance is 800 per year. Basically 6.5k minimum

I had a work buddy come out a couple times and show me the basics of sailing, and then the trial and error for the rest. I do all the maintenance and upgrades, which thankfully haven’t been much as the previous owner did an awesome job.

I’ve had it for 2 seasons without troubles. The first year I was cautious about when I went out. The second year a bit less. Just know your limits and didnt go too fast too soon.

My only regret was not hiring someone right away to help me learn docking and Marina manoeuvres. I eventually got more comfortable but it’s still not my favourite thing.

All this being said, it’s working out for me, but who knows if it would for you. If you know yourself and what you’re capable of.

[JimJohnston]

Hi Aufdemwasser
I'm a member at Britannia YC and keep a 30 foot boat there to sail on that stretch of the Ottawa River. It's a great place to sail despite its landlocked position. Britannia and Nepean Sailing club offer similar amenties at similar prices but they do have a different 'character'. Personally I favour the character of BYC.
Before you purchase a boat with hopes of keeping her at either NSC or BYC you should check that they have mooring space. Sometimes there is a wait list for mooring places.
Another smaller club, CVGR, is found in Aylmer Quebec where you might find mooring.
Advantage Sailing, previously called Ottawa sailing school offers Sail Canada accredited courses such as Basic cruising in keel boats operating from both clubs. Their office is located at Britannia. I would urge you to first contact them with a view to taking lessons this spring.
Walking around the yards at either club you will see many 'for sale' sale signs on boats ranging from dinghy size and up to perhaps as large as 40 feet. But the more popular size on the river tends to lie in the 27 -32 feet.
Feel free to send me a PM if you care to expand on this conversation.
Cheers
Jim

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Willkommen auf Cruisers' Forum, aufdemwasser. Habe Mut - Einmal waren wir alle anfänger :-)!

You have had lots of good advice upthread. You will note from my "handle" that our boat is thirty feet - the length you are contemplating. I have sailed all my life in boats of sundry lengths, and like many others here I've been a sailing instructor.

So let me offer you some thoughts that haven't been bruited above.

Thirty feet is the "sweet spot”, the length where you get the "biggest bang for the buck”. 29 feet, 32 feet, it makes no odds — they are all "thirty footers" or more particularly they are all "five tonners" with a "light ship" displacement of about 10K lbs.".

Thirty feet is the length that JUST permits man and maid to live aboard for some weeks, even a few months, at a time while remaining in some measure “civilized”. A SMALL child could also be accommodated, but a teenager, say? That, IMO, would become problematic!

A restrictive circumstance is the ability to carry water. In TP the two of us go through the entire tankage in four days, just for the cooking and the bare essential ablutions of ourselves. This limitation is not a problem for us because we sail in the Salish Sea (Gulf of Georgia) where portable water is easy to come by. But remember that in the days of the famous “P”- ships of Hamburg's Reederei Laeisz the ration of potable water, when the chips were down, was half a pint per man per day. That is about ¼ litre or 250cc per day – for ALL purposes! That would be extreme for modern cruising purposes, but there is no doubt that one's normal shoreside consumption of portable water must be drastically reduced when living aboard.

In a five-tonner the only fuel for cooking that is really viable is propane gas. We have two 11-pound bottles in TP, and one bottleful lasts about a week. I'll not forget the day I'd said “Nah – we'll be okay”, and I wound up trudging the length of North Pender Island with a empty propane bottle clasped to my breast bound for the only possible filling station! :-) As I was trudging back to the boat with the bottle now that much heavier, a “local” stopped his car and said “ 'Ere – 'Op in Mate!” Ask me if I was grateful! :-)

In a five tonner you don't really have room to carry even a folding bike for shoreside transport! And from the “south harbour” in Powell River to the local brewery/bar is a five-kilometer walk!

You spoke of a “bathroom”, known to us salty seadogs as a “heads”. You cannot HAVE a “bathroom” in a five-tonner! You will find that in a five tonner, not only isn't there room “to swing a cat”, to use the old phrase, but the toilet room in all five tonners I've been in, is so small that there isn't room within it for a well-grown man to “do the paperwork". Therefore intrusion into the “living spaces' is a foregone conclusion!

And as for “bathing” - No way! What you DON'T want in a five tonner is anything like a shoreside shower! Quite apart from your water tankage being far from great enuff to support showering, splashing water around below decks is to be absolutely eschewed! You'll have enuff trouble keeping you accommodation dry and tidy without that! The remedy is to do what is known as a "Liverpool-wash".

Obviously in bigger boats, such limitations are reduced or eliminated. But as has been said upthread, the ACQUISITION cost of a boat is merely the admission price. You should be able to find a serviceable five-tonner for twenty grand. The OWNERSHIP costs are something else again. Now, most people can find the money to BUY a boat. Not nearly as many can find the money to KEEP a boat :-)!

Consider the*ownership*costs of three representative sizes of*boats: We go by the waterline lengths. Typically, they would be 24, 29 and 34 feet. Again, typically,*ownership*costs go up according to the third*power*of the INCREASE in length of the waterline. Index the annual cost of owning a 27-footer with a 24-foot waterline as 1,000. Then a 33-footer with a 29-foot waterline will index at 1.771, and a 38-footer with a 34-foot waterline at 2.870

So take from that, that to OWN, year in and year out, a 33-footer will cost nearly twice as much as to own a 27-footer, and to own a 38-footer will cost nearly three times as much as to own a 27-footer!

And more grist for the mill: I maintain a "sinking fund" of Can$1,000/month for the ownership of*TrentePieds. That is C$12K a year, more than twice what you are estimating, and it all gets spent! She is, as I said, 30Ft*LOA*and 27Ft LWL. But for the fact that I can do the majority of the maintenance myself, I would have to double that sinking fund :-)! My ownership cost for a perfectly adequate 2-bdrm condominium near the pricey metropolis of Vancouver is about half of that!

It rather tickles me that the accounting jargon for the savings account needed to keep a boat afloat is “a sinking fund” :-)!

Anyway, as i said "Willkommen" :-) Just swallow hard and keep exploring and learning. Once upon a time we were all where you are at now :-)!

Beste Grüße

TrentePieds

I think we should not get fixated on length overall. A Nonsuch 30 is a totally different beast than Corvette 31 for example - both in terms of interior volume and cost. For example, a N30 Ultra does have both a head (I have always thought it singular unless you have two of them) and a shower compartment.

[AiniA]

As soon as I left my previous post it occurred to me that a really good boat for the OP would be a Niagara 31. Combines comfortable interior with good performance (Frers design) and Hinterhoeller quality. They did not make many of them, but you can find them.

[5BTM]

Originally Posted by AiniA

As soon as I left my previous post it occurred to me that a really good boat for the OP would be a Niagara 31. Combines comfortable interior with good performance (Frers design) and Hinterhoeller quality. They did not make many of them, but you can find them.

Hinterholler qaulity or not, Niagara 31 has a balsa-cored hull.
I would not consider one unless the seller allowed taking core samples.
That is not likely to happen.

[Thomas1985]

Best sailboat for you is the one you love. They are too much work to own without love.

Buy the boat that moves you. Not the one that seems "practical".

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

Hinterholler qaulity or not, Niagara 31 has a balsa-cored hull.
I would not consider one unless the seller allowed taking core samples.
That is not likely to happen.

In my experience cored hulls are not a problem and a decent surveyor will find any issues. Cored decks on the other hand ...

[TrentePieds]

I agree on the Niagara31 :-)

Utterly conventional, utterly tried and true below decks, on deck and aloft. The dinette version is arranged just like TrentePieds. Well fancy that, eh? Well, there is really no other layout that maximizes both utility and comfort in a five-tonner.

But the heads IS damn well too small. No matter - there is always the taff-rail, eh :-)

"Heads" is a SINGULAR noun in modern usage, even if it DOES end in "s". It derives from the fact that in the days when sailormen were men, and women were glad of it, sailors went to the "catheads" to defecate. A "cathead" is a short, stout beam protruding outboard from the ship's bows and used in handling the anchors. There were catheads port and starboard to handle "the bowers"

Delicate creatures that many of them were, the sailors of old would excuse themselves and go to "the heads" to defecate in relative privacy and to be spared the mockery of their fellows while doing it.

So the pooper in your boat and mine is very definitely a "heads", MIT ein "s", and in your boat, as in all five-tonners, IT IS TOO SMALL!!! :-)

All the best!

TP

[jfischgrund]

Check out the Cape Dory family of boats -- a Cape Dory 28 would be ideal for a small family. Traditional classic lines (Alberg design), are very well-built, easy to maintain, simple rigging, and very stable while sailing. There are also CD30s and 33s. Excellent boat to learn on.
They are also relatively inexpensive these days. The advice to save half of your $50K for maintenance (mooring fees, hauling in the winter is good advice, and $25K will get you a very nice Cape Dory.

[VanIslandGuy]

Originally Posted by Gary Mc

HI here are several boats that will giver you something to look into on these cold winter days

Bayfield 32 or 36 for your traditional look and a fair bit of teak.

CS 30 or 33 or 36 are all well built boats, also made in Ontario.

Aloha 32 or 36 are worth a look, also built near Toronto.

Good luck.

I'd skip the CS30 only as it's a little tender but love the CS33, CS36 and CS36Merlin.


I owned a Bayfield32c. Loved it, and suggest getting the "c" version with the taller rig so you can sail in lighter airs. The Bayfield 36 is a lot of boat for a beginner but is even more comfortable and is well built. Both will challenge you initially when docking, but that's a skill you will build in time.



I love the Aloha 32 & 34's.


All are good Ontario made boats, however survey well and be sure you can get insurance before purchase. Older boats are getting more challenging to insure, especially as a first time owner.

[jen1722terry]

Hello from sunny Madeira!

I notice you belong to a sailing club. Is this the kind of club that charters boats for weekends and longer trips for the members to use?

I ask, for I belonged to such a club down near Philadelphia for many years before I purchased my own first cruising sailboat. I was able to see lots of different boats out on the water, talk to owners and refine my needs, thus minimizing the risks of getting a boat that wouldn't be the best for me.

Like you, I've always liked a traditional boat with some teak trim.interiors.

My wife and I searched the eastern seaboard before settling on a Cape Dory 31, which is one of the prettier models in the Cape Dory line (the 28 and 25 being two other very attractive models). Yes, there is some exterior trim, some ov which we covered with marine, canvas the rest we just do

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

I agree on the Niagara31 :-)


But the heads IS damn well too small. No matter - there is always the taff-rail, eh :-)

"Heads" is a SINGULAR noun in modern usage, even if it DOES end in "s". It derives from the fact that in the days when sailormen were men, and women were glad of it, sailors went to the "catheads" to defecate. A "cathead" is a short, stout beam protruding outboard from the ship's bows and used in handling the anchors. There were catheads port and starboard to handle "the bowers"

So the pooper in your boat and mine is very definitely a "heads", MIT ein "s", and in your boat, as in all five-tonners, IT IS TOO SMALL!!! :-)

All the best!

TP

On all the boats I have had for 50+ years it has been the 'head', so different names for the same place. I have a Nonsuch 30, in fact the first Nonsuch 30, and the head is of completely adequate size.

Had a Niagara 31 for a time and about the only thing I did not like was the dinette. Only one convenient sea berth. I am a settee guy.