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Old 07-11-2021, 17:38   #1
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Be careful buying sails

Be careful guys if buying new sails.
Have a look at this short video of the Wynns problems. https://youtu.be/wjSNtWbx8oI
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Old 07-11-2021, 17:55   #2
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Re: Be careful buying sails

Why do people keep posting this thing? We already saw this today. We also already have boats, so many of us don’t want to watch that YouTube stuff, so over promoting it here won’t work. It should be over promoted to people that don’t have boats.
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Old 07-11-2021, 19:28   #3
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Re: Be careful buying sails

Sorry to annoy you so much Chotu, I looked through threads before posting and didnít see any mention of it. Foolish me. I donít think itís really that silly letting existing boat owners know which businesses may be dodgy.
Yes people may already have boats, but replacing things is usually part of it for most of us.
If my post annoys you so much ,why not just ignore it, why bother replying.
Enjoy your day.
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Old 07-11-2021, 20:31   #4
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Re: Be careful buying sails

Well that is quite a professional production. One thinks they may make up for the loss through the youtube views.
Another good reason to shop locally. I have purchased all my (new) sails from people I called by their first names.
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Old 07-11-2021, 20:53   #5
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Re: Be careful buying sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdog6 View Post
Be careful guys if buying new sails.

Have a look at this short video of the Wynns problems. https://youtu.be/wjSNtWbx8oI
Thanks for posting this. It's always helpful to learn from others experiences.
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Old 09-11-2021, 14:22   #6
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Re: Be careful buying sails

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Why do people keep posting this thing? We already saw this today. We also already have boats, so many of us donít want to watch that YouTube stuff, so over promoting it here wonít work. It should be over promoted to people that donít have boats.
"we" is a chinese baby!

I hadn't seen it, and am in the market for sails.
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Old 09-11-2021, 16:28   #7
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Re: Be careful buying sails

"Be Careful Buying Sales"

I'm pretty sure that being careful when buying anything is a great idea... doubly so when purchasing abroad.

Using Credit Cards that protect the buyer, American Express for example
Have friends or family assist... use brokers when purchasing expensive items.
There are probably more, but you get the idea.
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Old 11-11-2021, 05:33   #8
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Re: Be careful buying sails

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I have purchased all my (new) sails from people I called by their first names.
Not so easily done if you're circumnavigating, though.
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Old 11-11-2021, 05:44   #9
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Re: Be careful buying sails

I did watch this and is a unfortunate turn of events. I personally don't do business with companies that require payment up front for services/goods like this. I own a business and I don't require people to pre pay for services. As the business owner it is one of the "costs of doing business" to me. My sailmaker rep is also local to me. I don't pay for the sail until he delivers it, test fits it, and goes for a sail if that is what I want. I normally skip the test sail part. But is shows a level of confidence in the product when the business is the one on the hook until the service/goods are complete and the customer is happy.

But I agree with the above statement that this is a hard rule to adhere to when you are a world traveler living on the boat full time. I hope the video gets the attention of the company and the issue is resolved.

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Old 11-11-2021, 06:29   #10
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Re: Be careful buying sails

Thanks for sharing. If you look at the comments it looks like OneSail came through for them after all, but only after realizing how much bad press this was going to earn them. Sure, the sail loft in S. Africa failed to deliver, but if their relationship with OneSail was "interrupted" in Spring 2020, wouldn't it have been OneSail's responsibility to help make them whole and source their sails from a different loft?
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Old 11-11-2021, 07:00   #11
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Re: Be careful buying sails

The internet is rife with fraud. Do Not Send Tens of Thousands of Dollars, Pounds, whatever to someone you have never met.
Flashy web sites are cheap, license agreements change constantly......getting your money back is impossible.
Buy locally from someone you know on a first name basis.
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Old 11-11-2021, 07:33   #12
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Re: Be careful buying sails

I've ordered 3 sails over the years online and had no problems. But I did deal with companies or representatives located within the US, not international. Each required a deposit to place the order, typically 50%. A good message in that video, but I would not hesitate to order another sail online, but only after doing my research and from someone located in the US.
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Old 11-11-2021, 08:16   #13
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Re: Be careful buying sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Well that is quite a professional production. One thinks they may make up for the loss through the youtube views.
Another good reason to shop locally. I have purchased all my (new) sails from people I called by their first names.
This would be good advice except that even your local sailmaker is probably actually having the sails made in one of the major facilities overseas. If so, he can get screwed by the overseas outfit. If you paid him for three sails, for example, say $15,000 for high tech sails and he paid the overseas outfit and they don't deliver then he might be hard pressed to come up with that money to pay you back. So this is a risky transaction and it is hard to avoid it.

If the local guy is making the sails on the floor of his own loft your exposure is much less, but the costs are usually higher since his labor rate is probably much higher than the rate paid to the workers in the overseas facility.

For the cruiser who is travelling it is difficult. My advice for the safest way is to work with a major, established loft, (with financial resources) when you are in the city where they are located, not doing business by email and wire transfer. However, I have done business that way (by email and wire transfer) for many years. Iíve bought at least 12 sails (for myself and for customers) that way from a variety of overseas sail manufacturing facilities. I take the financial risk (and other risks related to design and sizing) because of massive savings which can be achieved when the deal goes as planned.

Can you count on not paying until the sail is delivered? Usually only sailmakers with a long record of paying their bills get credit approved by the overseas company. The overseas outfit is reluctant to build sails and send them to your local guy without payment. They are worried about getting screwed, same as you are. For that reason most of the sails ordered from overseas facilities donít get started in the manufacturing phase until a deposit (50%) has been paid. That money is gone if the sail is never built. And they usually wonít ship until the final payment is made. If you can get a local sailmaker who will accept payment only on delivery then you obviously have less risk, but somebody, somewhere, is going to accept a risk of not getting the payment. You have the same difficult time using credit cards. The overseas company usually will insist on direct wire transfer.

I read carefully the whole court case between the people Wynns did business with (JSR) vs Quantum, One Sails and, actually, Ulman. Apparently, according to the court findings and judgment, the South African company had been doing business for a long time and delivered many sails, but got caught up in a legal proceeding which they lost with a massive judgment against them, and probably closed their doors immediately. Covid shipping restrictions exacerbated the problem. Bad luck for the Wynns.

I did have a similar situation to the Wynns where the overseas facility closed it doors before my ďpaid forĒ sail was shipped. In my case I persuaded them to finish and ship the $5000 sail. I was lucky. I think it was the last sail which ever came out of that facility. I nearly lost a customer's paid-for sail and I thought I was going to have to reimburse him out of my pocket (for another $5000 sail), but luckily we did get the sail (Whew!). Mainly the guys I was dealing with were honorable people who just got in a business fix. And I am still doing business with a new organization which has reopened the facility with many of the same workers, and also with the some of the principals after they moved to a new company (I know, crazy, but I feel lucky).

So, be very very careful, and if you decide to take a chance because of the lure of BIG savings, as I do, make sure you can afford the loss if it goes sideways.
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Old 11-11-2021, 09:33   #14
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Re: Be careful buying sails

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Originally Posted by JimsCAL View Post
I've ordered 3 sails over the years online and had no problems. But I did deal with companies or representatives located within the US, not international. Each required a deposit to place the order, typically 50%. A good message in that video, but I would not hesitate to order another sail online, but only after doing my research and from someone located in the US.
There are many situations where something is not a problem until it becomes a problem, etc. All of the new sails Iíve bought, not that many really, but as it is, have been measured for and fitted by the local loft representative. None on-line. Canít say thatís always worked so well, however. I donít know how many suits of new sails that long-range cruisers go through in, say, five years, but considering what Iíve experienced Iíd definitely consider buying them at home, fitting them, and trying them out before departing to foreign destinations. They go with me or reside some place whence I can get them delivered.

The last new mainsail I bought from a Quantum ďdealerĒ who measured for it was not right from the first day. The boat was slipped 80 miles from the dealer location. The sail was built in Sri Lanka, finished in North Carolina, I believe, then shipped here. I get the sail, lug it the 80 miles to the boat in Channel Islands, put it on and right away thereís a problem. At full hoist it would luff against the mast with wind abeam; violently in strong wind, shaking the whole rig. That 80 miles of separation was a MAJOR obstacle to getting the service I needed. Effectively, Iíd have to bring the boat to dealer location to access the problem and pay transient slippage there the whole time the boat sat in the Marina waiting for the dealer to get Ďround to it. Dealer would not travel to Channel Islands w/o big cost there.

I suffered with this for a while until I could get the sail into a local sailmakerís loft. The Quantum dealer was not a sailmaker. I explained the problem so he shortened the bolt rope in the luff of the mainsail. I tried it; much better but not completely fixed. Sailmaker told me the shortened bolt rope had to work itself out evenly over the whole luff distance. Sail it for a while, a bit over tightened, until itís fully stretched. Shortly after that, the problem went away. Yeah!

Anyway. you can see the potential folly of dealing remotely on custom-built products. Yeah, you can give up the money and start over, but what about the lost time and anxiety if you needed to get going?
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Old 11-11-2021, 10:10   #15
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Re: Be careful buying sails

The most amazing part of this saga is that they weren't offered free sails from Precision. They have a lot bigger of a channel then most of the other people they do sails for.
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