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Old 12-08-2022, 14:31   #16
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Before buying batteries, do a good audit of what is drawing power.

Ideally an amp-hr meter on the battery would be best but even just getting the amps to each device and estimating the duration it's operating is better than random battery suggestions. You might have other stuff beyond the fridge using power...or the fridge may not be functioning properly and drawing excess power.

Then once you know what you need, you can back calculate what you need in terms of battery bank and solar.
Thanks Valhalla, I do feel that performing a thorough energy audit is indeed a must. Thankfully, I've just made a connection that may be able to assist me. I'm going to need to spend a couple of days on the boat to perform a true audit so I can measure the draw over a period of time.
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Old 12-08-2022, 14:35   #17
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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I believe that the Deka batteries are mostly made by East Penn, who also make a number of other brands. https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/


The advice that you should better understand what is going on with your electrical system as a whole, is good advice.


Flooded batteries are no longer recommended for sailboats following the 1998 Hobart Race, where six people died. Among the factors that led to their death was failure of the flooded batteries following a rollover/inversion of the boat, which led to inability to contact rescue resources via radio.
Jammer, very interesting, I had no clue that this happened and now I know why some folks don't recommend them. What type of batteries do you use, AGM/Gel/Lith?
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Old 12-08-2022, 19:29   #18
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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Jammer, very interesting, I had no clue that this happened and now I know why some folks don't recommend them. What type of batteries do you use, AGM/Gel/Lith?

I recently sold my Hunter 26. Due to its small size and inland scope of navigation, I used flooded batteries. They were group 24 and I used a house brand flooded battery at the local auto parts place because they were cheap, fresh, and available.


I am presently negotiating the purchase of what could become my next boat. It is a 38' racer/cruiser and will be on the Great Lakes and eventually beyond. It has AGMs now and I plan an LiFePO4 conversion when they fail.


In the USA flooded lead acid (FLA) batteries are a good deal. They are for the most part manufactured in the USA and are cheaper than they are in most other countries. I see AGMs as a poor overall tradeoff cost and performance wise. LiFePO4 are expensive but will last longer if cared for and work out being a better deal than AGMs, IMO at least, though still more expensive than FLAs.


But I will not have FLAs on a boat on the Great Lakes.
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Old 12-08-2022, 19:50   #19
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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bensolomon - My panels are almost never shaded. I'm in Miami FL and keeping the son at bay is quite a challenge.
Hi, I have 6x6 volt golf cart batteries for the house, 190 watts of solar, on a mooring in Sydney Australia and the system runs a fridge 24/7 without any issues whatsoever. Recently replaced the bank after 8 years, very happy with the golf cart batteries, though I do wish the pricing was similar to the US.
And as others have said, the start battery should not be supplying house power.
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Old 15-08-2022, 07:06   #20
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

AGM’s are a poor choice for a boat on a mooring with a fridge on. They suffer PSOC damage (partial state of charge) unless fully charged to 100% every few days. PSOC can kill an AGM in a year.

Keeping a fridge running off of just solar isn’t easy with occasional cloudy days. I would guess you need 500 watts of solar.

You could add more solar with panels that you set up only while on the mooring and store before going out. 10% shading will reduce a solar panels output to zero. And test your solar panel output especially if they are flexible panels. Most flexible panels fail in less than two years.
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Old 15-08-2022, 07:16   #21
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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AGM’s are a poor choice for a boat on a mooring with a fridge on. They suffer PSOC damage (partial state of charge) unless fully charged to 100% every few days. PSOC can kill an AGM in a year.

Keeping a fridge running off of just solar isn’t easy with occasional cloudy days. I would guess you need 500 watts of solar.

You could add more solar with panels that you set up only while on the mooring and store before going out. 10% shading will reduce a solar panels output to zero. And test your solar panel output especially if they are flexible panels. Most flexible panels fail in less than two years.
Absolutely , I stop the first sentence after “ boat “
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Old 15-08-2022, 07:24   #22
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

I have a 34' keelboat with an old Volvo Penta 2002 engine with a 50 A generator and a very small and old solar ...
In 2008, I installed ten units of Vision 60Ah AGM, sealed, maintenance free, batteries, under the berths in both sides of the boat, so I could sail a minimum of 3 days/nights - 72 hours - without charging the batteries, while compressor, lights, instruments, VHF, AIS, winches, pumps, PC, tablets, mobiles, etc., would function.
My goal was not to discharge the batteries to less than 50% of total capacity, which - in our case - equals a daily consumption of around 100 Ah.
We are sailing in Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Finnish and Baltic waters.
We have anchored more than 500 hundred nights at anchor over the 13 year period.
These 10 AGM 60 Ah 12 V batteries were replaced after problem free use over 13 seasons (thirteen) for six new 100Ah carbon lead sealed batteries with same external dimensions and weight per unit.
So, I do not understand why several sailors in this thread have articulated quite negative posts or warnings about the use of AGM batteries in boats ...
Just wondering ...
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Old 15-08-2022, 07:44   #23
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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Flooded batteries are no longer recommended for sailboats following the 1998 Hobart Race, where six people died. Among the factors that led to their death was failure of the flooded batteries following a rollover/inversion of the boat, which led to inability to contact rescue resources via radio.
Recommended by who?

Flooded Lead-Acid batteries are still by far the most common type of battery found on boats.

I've never heard of a survey recommending they be removed or an issue getting registration or insurance.

Obviously, you have the option to pay the substantial upgrade cost for AGM but in a roll over, you probably have bigger issues than the batteries.
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Old 15-08-2022, 13:10   #24
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

What is your W consumption pr day? How many hours can solarpanel charge 200W pr day?
How many days do you wan't to stay without any charging (No sun)?
How many A can your alternator charge?
When all questions is answered, you can sized your battery bank.

AGM need +-5 hours charging with float, Acid more.

Lifepo4 is my choice. Charges quick, 1/2 weight and stable voltage. You can use90% of capasity. 4000+++ charges... In long time it is cheaper. AGM as start battery and winch.
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Old 15-08-2022, 14:43   #25
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

As usual, mostly good advice. Before thinking about new batteries, assuming they are at least functional, you need to go back and make a drawing, or schematic, of your electrical system. Then you need to find out why 400W of solar panels were not enough to power your fridge - this is just crazy. It is unlikely that your fridge is that inefficient but if it is then upgrading it should be a very high priority. Reducing power consumption is a better approach than increasing power production. Also, there is something very wrong that your starting battery was drained along with the house batteries. If you have a battery selector switch with a "both" position then think of replacing it - it is an accident waiting to happen.

I feel strongly that charging circuits should be kept separate from consumption circuits, and should operate automatically. For instance, my solar charging regulator has outputs for two separate banks, which will not allow one bank drawing from another. For decades I used diode isolators on the alternator output, again charging both banks automatically without chance of cross-connection (I now have something like a VSR). My wind gen still uses diodes. On the consumption side I use 80A circuit breakers on each bank to provide house power - one or the other but not both. Of course there must be a way to use the house batteries to start the engine - just don't make it easy to leave the battery banks connected.

When you get to the batteries I think the best approach to lead batteries is quality gel technology. Without a doubt Sonnenschein is the leader in gel technology, but East Penn had a marketing and technology exchange agreement with them and also makes a fine gel battery. Beware of the rest. Gels have low internal resistance, meaning they can charge quickly and when discharging the voltage does not sag as much as a flooded battery does. I see no advantage of AGMs over gels, and there are disadvantages, as discussed earlier. Lithiums do look to have advantages over lead but require compatible chargers and BMS - it is a system makeover, not just a battery replacement. Whether that is worth doing is an individual choice.

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Old 15-08-2022, 16:07   #26
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
...


Flooded batteries are no longer recommended for sailboats following the 1998 Hobart Race, where six people died. Among the factors that led to their death was failure of the flooded batteries following a rollover/inversion of the boat, which led to inability to contact rescue resources via radio.
Sorry , that's simply not the case outside the ORC and what the ORC decides has little bearing on cruising boats
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Old 15-08-2022, 16:12   #27
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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When you get to the batteries I think the best approach to lead batteries is quality gel technology. Without a doubt Sonnenschein is the leader in gel technology, but East Penn had a marketing and technology exchange agreement with them and also makes a fine gel battery. Beware of the rest. Gels have low internal resistance, meaning they can charge quickly and when discharging the voltage does not sag as much as a flooded battery does.
if you remain with LA, the best overall battery for a boat remains wet acid VRLA

Gels are very sensitive to charging parameters and over charging and expensive
AGMs are sensitive to partial charges and expensive
Wet VRLAs, are the best value LA cell on the market and has an average life of about 4-5 years
WET VRLA is the most tolerant of poor charge regimes ( within the limitations of all LA technology )
Wet VRLA is safe , available everywhere and compatible with most default charging sources
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Old 15-08-2022, 16:13   #28
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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Hello Everyone,

For the past several weeks I've been dealing with a battery capacity lesson and am seeking feedback from anyone that may have had experience with Deka Batteries.

First off I currently have 2 group 31 12v, 100AH West Marine flooded batteries that I already replaced once. Since the boat is new to me I'm having to go through that Power Management learning curve. A few weeks ago when I visited the boat on its mooring I left the refrigerator on. When I returned all batteries were drained including my third battery, the starting battery. Since I had upgraded my Solar just recently to 2 200W panels I have wanted to size a suitable Battery Bank including future growth needs. I felt that two flooded batteries were probably not going to cut it, considered going to Lithium but simply cant afford them right now. After much research on the different types I'm pretty much set on purchasing 4 AGM batteries which are also not inexpensive. At present I've zeroed in on some Deka batteries and am hoping some of you can let me know what your experience has been with them. They are the Deka 8a31dt-deka model which is a 12v, 105AH battery. See spec sheet attached.

Has anyone used this battery and what was your experience overall??

Thanks in advance.

My personal view: if I can’t go lithium, I would just go with quality 6V golf carts flooded. Tried and true like a T-105. I have not had to best of luck with others. And I have lived aboad and cruised 5 different boats over tens of thousands of miles. This has just been my experience. What marketers call “deep cycle” is really misleading to be polite. Also Lithium batteries are really coming down in price. No question, lithium is the cheapest way to go in the LONG run. Check out YouTube channel: DlY solar power with Will Prowse. This guy is a wealth of knowledge on solar, lithium etc. A very savvy guy.
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Old 15-08-2022, 16:16   #29
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

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Originally Posted by Flemming Torp View Post
...................
...................

So, I do not understand why several sailors in this thread have articulated quite negative posts or warnings about the use of AGM batteries in boats ...
Just wondering ...

Glad to hear you had good experiences with your AGMs.


Maine Sail, who writes here frequently, has posted some caveats about AGM batteries. Compared to FLA they appear to be more finnicky abd cost a heck of a lot more.


AGM Batteries - Making The Choice (from Maine Sail)

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...choice.124973/

AGM Battery Issues and the Blue Seas Dual Circuit Switch (from Maine Sail) "DARN AGM Batteries"
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...teries.133773/

Additional Observations on the Limits of AGMs http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5....html#msg63004


******************


There was a "race to AGMs" a decade ago due to "new improved technology" that wasn't so improved due to its inherent characteristics for certain families of boaters.


I agree with goboatingnow, based on how most cruisers use their boats especially before solar, they turned out to be a not-so-wise choice. And even with solar, if you can keep them charged to near 100% all the time, why pay 4X the price? Unless you have a crazy installation where your batteries have to lie on their sides or you can't get to them, but that's a different issue with the boat builder/designer, not batteries.
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Old 15-08-2022, 16:47   #30
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Re: Assistance with Battery choice

I mostly 'lurk' here since I lost my last yacht. However having lived with solar and batteries since about 1990 added and refrigeration to the mix after 2000 - like many others I've wandered through the DIY and electrics minefield.



It used to be that a solar panel and a decent deep cycle battery cost a month or two of wages. By about 2005, they were affordable and my 2010, cheap as chips, comparatively.


I always tried to keep any battery related to starting an engine, on its own circuit, including its own small solar panel. I think my 'starting panel' was about 20W.


Over time, I learned that the refrigerator, especially if it was also used as a freezer, needed to have its own dedicated circuit too. Prefereably a 12V deep cycle battery, or bank of a couple of 6V DCs coupled to a solar panel of around 80W - 100W (where I live (about 20deg South).
I also learned to carry a 'Christie'. A 2.5hp Honda engine direct coupled to a 55A Bosch alternator with the smarts to charge several types of batteries.

In 'Wet Season' in the tropics we often had days of rain, so the solar panels worked, but struggled. The Christie was a godsend.


Disadvantage was that it is a noisy little devil. Advantage is that it can charge a car battery that is too flat to start a vehicle, from flat to fully charged in about 15 minutes.
They are not great with deep cycle batteries, because the electronics leaves the last 10% to take forever, but by then I could just leave that to the solar panels.


Most of the time though, a 100W panel had the Fridge battery recharged by about 11am.


I also ad a 100AH House Battery, also deep cycle, connected to an old 80W panel I'd had on an earlier yacht. That never seemed to need charging.


I have had several friends with battery woes who ended up doing the same thing. Separate battery circuits and panels for Starting, House and Fridge.
If I was using other 'high draw' electronics like TV, Laptop, Microwave (or anything using an Inverter), they would have a dedicated circuit, with perhaps 150W or 200W panels if there was space.



A lot of people anchored around me (I generally lived on the hook) went to great lengths to angle their panels to face the sun.
That is pretty well a waste of time at anchor when cruising. The boat spends so much time moving relative to 'everything' that there's no way the panels stay angled correctly.

I always had my panels just far enough off flat to let the rain run off.
Solar panels need light - not only sunlight. The angle relative to the light source makes a difference, but not as much difference as you would think in most cases.
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