Are Power Boaters Clueless

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by crabcake

If you didn't have police with Speed Radar patrolling the highways, most people wouldn't pay attention to the speed limits.

Same principle here.

No enforcement, no adherence.

I think you put your finger on it.

The problem is that professional mariners are -- professionals. I'm not talking about shrimp boats and small traffic, but ships with bridges and standing orders and so forth. You don't need highway patrolmen standing over their shoulders to be sure that in 99% of cases, they do their jobs and follow the Rules and maneuver correctly.

But a bunch of amateurs like us -- it's a different story. With no captain looking over our shoulders, no standing orders, no license, no education, and often -- no brains . . .

You get what we have. That's why ships' bridge officers call us WAFI's.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed STW speed limits have a couple of disadvantages -- many boats don't have working logs, and also LEO's can't easily measure your STW.

But I think you would agree that obeying a 6 knot SOG speed limit in a river with 4 knots current on the ebb would make many power boats absolutely uncontrollable, so this wouldn't work.


On the water around here, law enforcement is much less aggressive than it is in U.S. waters. There are no "potty police", like used to harass us constantly in Florida, and I've never been boarded once for anything in seven years in UK waters. They don't use speed guns or give out tickets.

What they do do is warn anyone obviously speeding or bothering people with excessive wake, and on rare occasions they do give substantial fines. If you're within a knot or even two of the speed limit, they will not bother you, but people here are very law-abiding here and very careful to obey the speed limits. I can't even recall if I've ever seen anyone speeding on the Hamble.

Especially the power boaters, who in UK waters are more polite and skillful than the average sailors are. Practically all of them go through the excellent RYA training programs and get some kind of Yachtmaster qualification. You can certainly count on them knowing and following the COLREGS! More than I can say for the commerical fishermen around here.

If the man tickets you, it will be with a radar gun or following just like a car. It will be SOG. Give the commercial fisherman a break. It is a hard way to make a living. In the civilized world they may know more about COLREGS than the weekend sailor.

[rwidman]

I was heading north on the AICW several miles north of the Camp Lejeune military bas when three military boats came speeding by at maybe 30 MPH or more. No call on the VHF, no horn signals, no warning whatsoever. If I had drifted to port a bit there would have been a nasty collision. Their wake sent things flying on my boat and rocked several others I could see.

Were these guys "clueless" or did they just not give a crap about anyone else on the water. I'm guessing they didn't give a crap.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cadence

If the man tickets you, it will be with a radar gun or following just like a car. It will be SOG. Give the commercial fisherman a break. It is a hard way to make a living. In the civilized world they may know more about COLREGS than the weekend sailor.

If they give you a ticket around here, they will do it by following you, and will use STW by reading their own logs, not SOG, since the bye-laws of the river express the speed limit as STW.


I certainly have sympathy and admiration for commercial fishermen. I just observe as a matter of fact that around here, at least, they are the most likely, by far, to maneuver erratically and contrary to the Rules. We all steer a wide berth around them, over here. Whether they know the rules or not, I don't know, but they very often don't follow them, especially the rules about keeping watch, and how many times have you seen the fishing nav status day shapes simply welded on?



I actually had a collision with a commercial fisherman last year -- in fact, the whole fiasco involved two of them. One of them was fishing at night, single handed, radar off, no AIS (contrary to the rules here), hauling his gear with the boat on autopilot and no one at the helm. He ran into and got his gear tangled with my anchor rode. Thank God he didn't run into my boat.

While I was untangling it (I declined his offer to cut it, and then find it for me later -- right), a second fisherman, also single-handed, stopped by to see what the commotion was about, and while talking to the first fisherman, forgot he was in gear, and t-boned me, smashing his rusty steel prow into the side of my boat, causing 20 000 pounds of damage and putting my boat out of action for half a year. Nor did he have any insurance. He proposed not to report the accident so that he could buy insurance and then report it as if it had happened later. I declined to participate in this, and fortunately my own insurance paid for the damage.

I now leave my deck lights on at anchor in the Solent.


That's all kind of apropos of nothing, but anyway -- around here, commercial fishermen are considered to be navigational hazards, and we give them lots and lots of room, whether they are fishing, or not. Kind of the way ships treat sailboats.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by Cadence

If the man tickets you, it will be with a radar gun or following just like a car. It will be SOG. Give the commercial fisherman a break. It is a hard way to make a living. In the civilized world they may know more about COLREGS than the weekend sailor.

When I was a lad in college I went out with a friend who was a captain of a Florida based forty-five or so foot commercial shrimp boat. We left at sunset, and returned after sunrise.

I would fish and we'd all chat in between pulls, actually all the time. What I can say is this: from my experience the commercial guys for the most part are very courteous. That being said, we had run-ins with power and sail (much more power) that would cause one to quickly lose their religion.

A few caused me to contemplate saying a few Hail Mary's.

This was in the late 60's and early 70's... And there were plenty of idiots back then, just way more now. Given the numbers of watercraft being 'driven' (won't say skippered because that's giving the devil way more than its due) by uneducated and unlicensed "drivers," we're lucky there isn't way more carnage like the Miami Marlins pitcher and chums who recently lost their lives.

I do have major problems with lobster and crab pots!

Moral the story: If you want to have a great fishing experience, make friends with a shrimp boat captain!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by crabcake

If you didn't have police with Speed Radar patrolling the highways, most people wouldn't pay attention to the speed limits.

Same principle here.

No enforcement, no adherence.

Actually, I set speed limits for a living.

We set the speed limit based on what people do. Literally, we go out and measure speeds (being careful not to be seen doing so). Studies show enforcement has no long term effect on speeds.

[Cadence]

it

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Actually, I set speed limits for a living.

We set the speed limit based on what people do. Literally, we go out and measure speeds (being careful not to be seen doing so). Studies show enforcement has no long term effect on speeds.

Maybe if the courts don't make it more than a slap on the wrist?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Actually, I set speed limits for a living.

We set the speed limit based on what people do. Literally, we go out and measure speeds (being careful not to be seen doing so). Studies show enforcement has no long term effect on speeds.

No, I understand what he's talking about. The 85th percentile.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Actually, I set speed limits for a living.

We set the speed limit based on what people do. Literally, we go out and measure speeds (being careful not to be seen doing so). Studies show enforcement has no long term effect on speeds.

Well, I would have to respectfully disagree with the studies. If that were the case, idiots wouldn't slow down for the FMP when they are present. Same goes for a highway patrol going down I-95 with a line of cars following him/her.

A marked law enforcement vehicle (car or boat) does more for compliance than anything else.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Cadence

it

Maybe if the courts don't make it more than a slap on the wrist?

Nope, extreme enforcement can get speeds down for a short period but as soon as it stops, speeds go right back up.

Reality is most people do what is reasonable. If you have 90% of the people violating the rule, it's the rule that's wrong not the people. Some of the colregs run afoul of this issue (ie: how many people used horn to signal a passing last time they were out)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by crabcake

Well, I would have to respectfully disagree with the studies. If that were the case, idiots wouldn't slow down for the FMP when they are present. Same goes for a highway patrol going down I-95 with a line of cars following him/her.

A marked law enforcement vehicle (car or boat) does more for compliance than anything else.

Disagree all you want but unless you are going to hand out tickets by the bushel basket and do so in perpetuity, people drive what they are comfortable with.

More importantly, trying to artificially lower speed limits tends to increase crashes as most people continue to drive at a reasonable speed and a small percentage create a hazard by driving abnormally slow.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by Captndave1

justification for schooling and licensing for anyone using any boat with a motor. I am all for licensing. you have to have a license to drive a car or fly an airplane, so what's the difference?

: thumb:

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

More importantly, trying to artificially lower speed limits tends to increase crashes as most people continue to drive at a reasonable speed and a small percentage create a hazard by driving abnormally slow.

By that reasoning, we should remove all speed limits from school zones?

Would you happen to have some links to the studies you reference?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Nope, extreme enforcement can get speeds down for a short period but as soon as it stops, speeds go right back up.

Reality is most people do what is reasonable. If you have 90% of the people violating the rule, it's the rule that's wrong not the people. Some of the colregs run afoul of this issue (ie: how many people used horn to signal a passing last time they were out)

I used a horn for backing out of a slip then backing into the channel. I think I got the who is this crazy bastard look? The marina help and three young Coasties that happened to be there with their Rib side arms and suspicious looking tripod forward, No blame on anyone. Just seemed to tell a story about horns?

[Captndave1]

cops patrolling speed on the water would be about as worthless as cops patrolling speed on our roads. Almost nobody drives within posted speed limits on our roads, so why would anybody think it would be any different on the water.