Another Free Anchorage Gone - How Do we Fight This??

[ssullivan]

I think Kai Nui really comes closest to a true plan or idea of how to assert anchoring rights - yes I'm calling them rights. It can only be done from within the system, and tacked on like a bad law tacked onto a bill in congress.

I have no great idea for this... and haven't even really gave it a lot of thought. If there's one thing I do know it's that the only way you can get something done with government is to make it PROFITABLE to them and/or the people or companies who control them.

Once you find a way to make an anchorage into a steady stream of dollars for someone, they will flourish like there's no tomorrow. That's the sad truth.

[hellosailor]

The bottom line is that we all do have anchoring rights. The same rights that apply to any presence upon privately owned property. If it is yours, you can park on it. If it ain't yours, you got not right to be there unless the owner grants it to you.

So, unless you own bottom land (and you can privately own it) or the owner (private, local, state, or federal) has granted you the right to use it...You're tresspassing, like any other common criminal.

Wishing it weren't so and weren't so simple, isn't going to change the underlying property rights in western civilization.

So has no one noticed what Jeb Bush has done in Florida this summer?
As I understand it, he has banned municipalities from limiting anchoring except for livaboards and the definition of livaboards can be tightly managed to mean only people who have no other possible home. When the water cop asks you if you are a livaboard, you tell them no, just out for a long cruise.
Otherwise cities have to set up mooring fields and that requires state and federal approval.

[ssullivan]

Interesting development in FL. That's what I've been trying to say as of late in this lengthy thread. There are laws, and then there is the matter of enforcing laws. Laws are out there in case the enforcers need them. Often, there are plenty of laws that don't go enforced. Anchoring laws in my area are one set that doesn't get enforced. For instance, and I don't want to draw attention to these people, so I'll leave a couple details out:

There is a tug at a certain island nearby that is anchored there at least all summer. Who are the liveaboards? Maybe 5 or 6 young guys. They dropped that huge anchor and stayed put at least all summer, if not for years at a time.

Hellosailor: Western property rights are interesting, aren't they? If you think of the way the Native Americans used land (by sharing it and not owning it), you can see why they might have traded a few furs and trinkets for the island of Manhattan. To them... if they believe nobody can own the land, the land purchasers must have seemed like morons. I'd have done the same thing in their shoes - "what... this Brooklyn Bridge? Sure! I'll sell the bridge to you for an outboard and a few gallons of diesel."


Whoops... thread drift. Sorry.

But it comes down to enforcement. Even though most towns I have stayed in have ordinances for enforcing time limits on anchoring, only one has even bothered to approach my boat. All that one did was take down some info and ask me how long I wanted to stay. I said 2 weeks and was there for 3. They never came by again.

With the one I'm in right now (2 weeks and running), I haven't even seen the harbormaster's boat yet! I'll be here until mid-October when we go back onto a dock to winter over and grab a few bucks. It's a great town because they have parking for our car in a municipal lot and all the conveniences you could ever need, plus some side work for us to do.

[Tropic Cat]

Xort, What you are refering to was a major Florida boating legislation with inputs from many sides. When passed it was House Bill 7175. If you read the bill, it's primary function was to throw all of us boaters out of marinas when there is an approaching hurricane, and parts of it were written by insurance companies, not ours... the marinas'. It was determined that our boats were detrimental to a marina during a hurricane.

Xort, What you wrote, is certainly true, unfortunately the rest of the bill hoses us. I've had many, many discussions with state legislators trying to modify this bill early this year. Boat US had a major lobbying effort and were just as effective as they were when they lobbied the City of Miami last year when Miami put a limit on anchoring.

What I really wanted to know during the discussions on this bill, was just where were the rest of the boat insurance companies? They were not represented. Is Boat US writing all of the boat policies these days? I would have thought that tossing every berthed boat in the path of a hurricane to the wolves (it's now the law in Florida) would have motivated them to voice an opinion. The segment on liveaboards was probably inserted to throw us a bone.

It used to be "any port in a storm". In Florida it's "Not in my marina"

Nice job Jeb Bush

Rick in Florida

[Tropic Cat]

Sean,

You have a handsome boat. What's more it's huge and looks very expensive. Hell, it is very expensive. Many of us own boats that although we are very proud of them, they are clearly not in your league.

My point is, that all of this local anchoring limit stuff, no matter what the reason given, is designed to prevent the marine version of a shanty town from appearing in coastal communities.

In your case, you should make them pay you for anchoring there (smile). They'll probably run down to the shore and start snapping photos of your boat that will appear in next years County/town council meeting handbook.

Rick in Florida

[ssullivan]

Ha ha ha! Great one, Rick. My boat surely appreciates your compliments. She's blushing right now.

I've looked at your website a few times and think your boat wouldn't get hassled either. She's a beauty of a cat, and would make any sunset proud to have her there!

Sad to hear that meat of the bill Xort was talking about has more to do with making it law to move boats out of marinas in the face of a hurricane. Does this apply only to boats in slips? Because my instinct (not having lived through enough hurricanes in FL to know) would be to haul out during a storm. There are some hurricane holes, but the cost of the required gear (lines, anti-chafe, anchors, etc...) is more than the cost of a haul out.

Ok, I hate to initiate thread drift, but do people notice a difference in the way you are treated depending on the size of your boat, or how well your boat is polished and shined up? I had great experiences this summer (read NO experiences) with harbormasters talking to me about anchoring. I don't recall any problems in my last boat (O'day 302). Is there any link between boat value and your potential to be harassed? Very curious....

[Tropic Cat]

Sean,

Thanks for the compliment. She isn't big, but she's all mine, and she's paid for (sigh).

As to your question, I think there's certainly a correlation. The next time you're in Florida, let's buddy up and sail our boats to one of these "not in my backyard" communities. We'll anchor and wait.

Want to bet who gets asked to leave??

Rick in Florida

In general, the appearance of a boat is not a big issue. A clean well kept budget weekender will get the same respect a mega yacht will get from most marinas, but it is the boats with the rigging in shambles, TV antennas hanging from the rigging, planters in the cockpit, and laundry hanging from the lifelines that spend months, and even years in an anchorage that get noticed. These boats are a problem, and there are lots of them. There is really no way, as cruisers, that we can "encourage" them to find a different RV to live in, but property owners can get the ear of legislaters. Unfortunately, when it gets to that point, no one is making any seperation between a weathered, well maintained cruising boat, and a derelict vessel grown to the bottom. So to answer the question, even when my boats are in project state, with rigging removed, and paint sanded, the local marina does not treat me any different than my neighbor who has a boat valued 10 times what mine is, and kept bristol by a full time maintenance guy who works on his boat and his house. As long as the projects move foward, and the boat gets used, there are no issues.
The concerns are legitimate. How likely is it that that guy living on the 25' Chris Craft that hasn't moved for the past 10 years is going to responsibly carry that porta potty to shore all the time? And what happens when the wood finally can not take the lack of maintenance and the boat sinks? What about that 80 gallons of fuel that never got used because the engine failed, and the owner could not afford to fix it. If I had property along that anchorage, I would be a little worried. Unfortunately, this is often the face of the live aboard in the eyes of the non boating public. It all goes back to self policing, and keeping it within the cruising community to chase out the derelict vessels. Although this seems an impossible task, it really is the only solution. This will give us far more of an argument when unfair legislation tries to close an anchorage. If we let non boaters regulate us based on their limited knowledge of boats and cruisers it is all or nothing.

[hellosailor]

"but do people notice a difference in the way you are treated depending "
Pull up in front of a restaurant, a club, a doorman building, in a nice shiny Ferrari. They're glad to let it sit there for a half hour, it makes them look good. Pull up an hour later in a '73 Dodge Dart with the paint all blistered off...Wanna guess how fast they'll have it towed?

That's the way most of this world works, nothing new about it.

The marina/huricane issue was caused by a similar issue to the 'no anchoring' issue. With no anchoring, it was neglected garbage scows that pissed off the local property owners. With the marina/hurricane issue it was negligent boat owners leaving biminis up and doing no extra securing of their boat in the face of a hurricane. So the marinas wanted extra measures put in place to defend THEIR property. As usual it's the negligent few that spoil things for everybody else. When I read the law regarding marinas/hurricanes it made perfect sense to me. I'm sorry you get screwed because of the inconsiderate slackers nearby.

[hellosailor]

"So the marinas wanted extra measures put in place to defend THEIR property. " Sounds like bad law made by bad politicians motivated by bad lawyers. (And if you've ever read Carl Hiasen's books, that's Florida to a "T".)

Essentially it sounds like they've legalized an unnecessary and unreasonable immediate eviction which places the occupant into harm's way with no options for safety. And probably violates contracts. That one should prove to be a lucrative field for REAL lawyers to play in.

Either that or the Mikkisaugee tribe is going to make a fortune by dredging hurricane holes in the Glades.<G>

[Tropic Cat]

"Essentially it sounds like they've legalized an unnecessary and unreasonable immediate eviction which places the occupant into harm's way with no options for safety"

I see that you understand the situation.

Now I figure the mental anguish from watching my evicted, unprotected, anchored boat sink in the next hurricane is going to be so extreme that the judgement from my lawsuit is going to pay for my new Manta 42.

Rick in Florida

[Pura Vida]

Off all the boats I have seen that is the first one of any size where every part looks home made. Check out the anchor!

My point exactly. I have always had a soft spot for a boat in need of saving, but even I would be looking for a way to have that one hauled away from my property. But, to many, that is just another live aboard.
Pura Vida, There is a difference between home made and slapped together. I think that counts as slapped together.