Anchor Scope - From Waterline or Bow Roller

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by chris mac

I've done the same, with paint, and written the pattern on the bottom of the hatch lid to the anchor locker.
That makes it much easier to remember[emoji846]

Yeah, that's what I need -- a cheat sheet .

Heck, I'm afraid by the time I get back to my boat I may not even remember what an anchor or bow roller is .

[Jim Cate]

Re the complicated color codes for the rode: I've always used a simple red,white, blue and then yellow sequence, every 25 feet. I don't mind that it repeats, 'cause even my deteriorating memory and mental processes can work out which "hundred" I'm in.

But I wouldn't mind a chain counter if it just fell from the sky onto my deck!

Jim

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yeah, I've gone to this as well using zip ties. My problem is, I sometimes forget what three whites and a green mean .

Fatty Goodlander came up with a very useful system using zip ties that I read about in his anchoring book (highly recommended, BTW). He says zip ties are economical and are difficult to miss in the dark and you always have more onboard so they can be easily replaced. Each link that has a zip tie on it has two so if one falls off it’s obvious and you can still tell how much chain is out. I just use markings every 50’ because I never let out less than that and can interpolate ‘close enough’ in between 50’ increments. So at 50’ out there is one link with 2 zip ties and at 100’ there are 2 links, each with 2 zip ties, etc. I also mark the link about 6’ from my anchor so when I see that come over the roller I know my anchor is about to break the surface. Anchor is almost always muddy here in Maine so leaving it hanging while slowly leaving the anchorage helps clean it before bringing it aboard.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Fatty Goodlander came up with a very useful system using zip ties that I read about in his anchoring book (highly recommended, BTW). He says zip ties are economical and are difficult to miss in the dark and you always have more onboard so they can be easily replaced. Each link that has a zip tie on it has two so if one falls off it’s obvious and you can still tell how much chain is out. I just use markings every 50’ because I never let out less than that and can interpolate ‘close enough’ in between 50’ increments. So at 50’ out there is one link with 2 zip ties and at 100’ there are 2 links, each with 2 zip ties, etc. I also mark the link about 6’ from my anchor so when I see that come over the roller I know my anchor is about to break the surface. Anchor is almost always muddy here in Maine so leaving it hanging while slowly leaving the anchorage helps clean it before bringing it aboard.

This is brilliant, love this zip tie system and will try it.

I've tried a lot of things (including zip ties), the latest are these new color coded anchor chain markers that are inserted inside the chain link. They work well, though expensive as heck, and I've had a couple disappear (fall out) in the year or so I've used them. I use 1 red for each 100' mark (3 red is 300 feet) and 1 yellow for each 30 foot mark in between (3 yellow is 90 feet). I space them out every third link so I can easily see and count as they fly by.

However, my favorite strategy so far is to use the colored PVC tags marked with the depth that are usually used for rope rode. I use whipping thread and a needle to sew them on the anchor chain, just takes a minute for each one, They're cheap, they last forever, and they survive the gypsy just fine.

But your zip tie solution is simple and easy enough to remember. I'm going to try it!

[SailFanatic]

This video works this subject over well
'
https://youtu.be/8EVSM3is3vA

[Pegu Club]

Measuring rode being payed out can be done in many ways, the windlass manufacturers say how many feet per second their units pay out, so we just count out the seconds ( ie; one one thousand two one thousand) and are with in a acceptable margin of error every time, Easy Peasey, no need for zip ties that break or Paint that always wears off, etc etc, those without a windlass would still need to mark your chain and rode in some fashion that you prefer as we did on our Bristol 24 when we owed that boat.

Fair winds,

[Captv]

I’m surprised that no one mentioned anchor kellet. Simple to make and allows for some reduction of scope while maintaining effectiveness. So under ideal condition, you can deploy it and reduce scope which can be beneficial in crowded anchorage but in a blow, when you increase your scope to compensate for seas and wind, it’ll further increase the effectiveness of your deployed ground tackle system.
There’s no clear cut way to stay in place on anchor, too many factors are involved. So basically, use the basic rules for scope and make adjustments based on the system you use. Type of anchor, anchor rode, (all chain, all nylon with short leader, or a combination) snubber, bridal kellet aka anchor angel, etc.

[rslifkin]

Nobody mentioned kellets because they're relatively useless. You gain far more holding power by adding that weight to the anchor. In light conditions, a kellet may improve the ride a little, but if it gets windy and stormy, you'll pull the rode tight anyway unless you're in deep water with several hundred feet of fairly heavy chain out.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Nobody mentioned kellets because they're relatively useless. You gain far more holding power by adding that weight to the anchor. In light conditions, a kellet may improve the ride a little, but if it gets windy and stormy, you'll pull the rode tight anyway unless you're in deep water with several hundred feet of fairly heavy chain out.

I agree, though I like kellets as part of the solution in a storm. It dampens horsing and helps scope up to a point, which on my 20 ton boat I'd estimate up to 30 knots before the rode straightens out. Given that wind speeds often go up and down and are not constant, that's not nothing.

And there's a certain amount of security I get from doing everything I know to do in a gale.

Last year I upgraded to an oversized, new gen anchor that I have a lot of confidence in, and 500' of HT chain. Got two 30' snubbers and backups, plus kellet and emergency anchor mounted aft for immediate deployment.

Lastly, we have a third anchor for drudging and using as hammerlock moor (2 little known strategies I discovered out of desperation) for when the yawing and swinging is out of control and threatening to dislodge the anchor, though using our mizzen as a riding sail tends to work as well.

As full time cruisers, we learned that our best strategy of all is to watch the forecast and be willing to move to a more protected anchorage rather than be lazy, complacent, and "ride it out."

[Mike OReilly]

I've never deployed a kellet. The closest thing I've come it is deploying two anchors on one rode, and I only did this once as an experiment.

Kellets seem to get mixed reviews as to their functionality. They do seem useful in winds less than that which lifts the rode, but after that I don't see how they do much good.

[Captv]

I agree that the extra weight added to the anchor is good, but I am talking about ground tackle system. First off, it is a good practice to over size your anchor from the get go. Also, there’s no one perfect anchor for all seabed. Also, all chain rode at the sufficient scope will provide quite a bit of weight. I see more benefit if one use nylon rode to increase the catenary and reduce the angle of the rode in relation to the anchor. So basically it’s just part of the strategy you use in your anchoring and is an additional tool you can use to increase your chances of staying put. Also, anything we use is basically works from normal to moderately heavy conditions. Every boat, anchorage and ground tackle had its limits. There will be a condition when all that fails.
Just the increased dampening the hobby-horsing and reducing the shock load is worth the use of it. And it’s a passive tool that requires little to no maintenance.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Captv

I’m surprised that no one mentioned anchor kellet. Simple to make and allows for some reduction of scope while maintaining effectiveness. So under ideal condition, you can deploy it and reduce scope which can be beneficial in crowded anchorage but in a blow, when you increase your scope to compensate for seas and wind, it’ll further increase the effectiveness of your deployed ground tackle system.

There’s no clear cut way to stay in place on anchor, too many factors are involved. So basically, use the basic rules for scope and make adjustments based on the system you use. Type of anchor, anchor rode, (all chain, all nylon with short leader, or a combination) snubber, bridal kellet aka anchor angel, etc.

I have a big Kellet that came with my boat but in 5 years I haven’t figured out a way to use it effectively. In a crowded anchorage, with “ideal” conditions, if I used my backup anchor that has a mostly nylon ride, I can see that it would help getting the anchor to initially dig in if I was forced to use short scope, but when I back down to set the anchor, the rode will straighten out as if the kellet wasn’t there so I haven’t gained much. But alternatively, I could let out more scope initially (if there’s room) to get the anchor to set, and then take in some rode once it’s well set so I’d swing similarly to all the other boats presumably using short scope in the crowded anchorage. If the wind does pick up, the bottom line is that in both cases, I’m swinging to a short scope and at risk of dragging. So it seems to me that my kellet is only useful if I find myself in a situation where the short scope doesn’t allow the tip of my anchor to dig in, and there’s no room to temporarily increase the scope in order to facilitate getting the tip to penetrate and begin to dig in.

Maybe it would be useful to use on a stern anchor if I had one out in order to prevent swinging back and forth because the loads on it would be low enough so the kellet could be effective. Does anyone else have experience using a kellet in this way?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I have a big Kellet that came with my boat but in 5 years I haven’t figured out a way to use it effectively. In a crowded anchorage, with “ideal” conditions, if I used my backup anchor that has a mostly nylon ride, I can see that it would help getting the anchor to initially dig in if I was forced to use short scope, but when I back down to set the anchor, the rode will straighten out as if the kellet wasn’t there so I haven’t gained much. But alternatively, I could let out more scope initially (if there’s room) to get the anchor to set, and then take in some rode once it’s well set so I’d swing similarly to all the other boats presumably using short scope in the crowded anchorage. If the wind does pick up, the bottom line is that in both cases, I’m swinging to a short scope and at risk of dragging. So it seems to me that my kellet is only useful if I find myself in a situation where the short scope doesn’t allow the tip of my anchor to dig in, and there’s no room to temporarily increase the scope in order to facilitate getting the tip to penetrate and begin to dig in.

Maybe it would be useful to use on a stern anchor if I had one out in order to prevent swinging back and forth because the loads on it would be low enough so the kellet could be effective. Does anyone else have experience using a kellet in this way?

If using a rope rode then a kellet will help you swing more like other cruising boats, that are typically using an all chain rode. In addition, it will help sink the rope rode below the keel or prop of other boats or even your own boat in light wind conditions. It can also help the initial setting of the anchor.

So with a rope rode a kellet has significant advantages in some circumstances. With an all chain rode the advantages of a kellet are much less significant. With an all chain rode In most conditions the kellet weight would be much better used to increase the anchor chain weight.

If considering holding power performance, the maximum gain by far is achieved by increasing the anchor size. A small increase in anchor size produces a much greater increase in holding power and ability to deal with poor holding substrates, short scopes etc compared to the same weight devoted to rode or kellet.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Nobody mentioned kellets because they're relatively useless. You gain far more holding power by adding that weight to the anchor. In light conditions, a kellet may improve the ride a little, but if it gets windy and stormy, you'll pull the rode tight anyway unless you're in deep water with several hundred feet of fairly heavy chain out.

True, however they are very useful in conditions where current changes and it's not too windy. Avoids keel wrap, especially for those with rope rodes.


A perfect example is China Camp on SF Bay.

[CarlF]

The likely reason that "old salts" anchor with 7:1 scopes is that they learned that when they started cruising in the 1970s and 1980's. I guess I would now qualify as an "old salt" and I was taught to always use 7:1 - and I did. The reason you had to do this was that anchors were pretty lousy back then. The most common on sailboats was the CQR. It was incredibly difficult to set so you learned to put out a lot of scope to improve your chances.

But if you don't still anchor with a CQR but a more modern anchor like a Rocna, Spade or Excel there's no reason to use 7:1. They reach their full holding power and resettability at much lower scopes. The excellent YouTube videos by SV Panope tests at 3.5:1 and 2.5:1 (measured to the roller) with extremely good results.

And here's a pretty surprising test video from SV Panope where he tests a CQR at 3.5:1 scope expecting it to fail - only to find it does very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF6iiL3KKA4

And finally, it's obvious that most people answering this post don't live in areas with big tidal range like Maine. There you calculate scope based on water+bow roller height+height to high tide. With 12ft tides it makes a big difference. It is not at all uncommon to see boats that anchored at low tide start dragging at high tide.