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Old 21-01-2021, 06:59   #106
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Though this is neither here nor there.....but back in 1983 I was working at this company, when the AC event came around. Several employees, knowing that I was a sailor, goaded me into placing a bet on the outcome. A case of beer. Thinking that the NYYC was sure to win, as they always did, they bet on them. Being ever contrarian, I bet on the Aussies.

A case of beer never tasted so good, but in sportsmanlike behavior, I shared it with the losers.
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Old 21-01-2021, 08:23   #107
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
Though this is neither here nor there.....but back in 1983 I was working at this company, when the AC event came around. Several employees, knowing that I was a sailor, goaded me into placing a bet on the outcome. A case of beer. Thinking that the NYYC was sure to win, as they always did, they bet on them. Being ever contrarian, I bet on the Aussies.

A case of beer never tasted so good, but in sportsmanlike behavior, I shared it with the losers.

Today, most non sailors do not even know there is an AC event going on. I do not know if that is because people have less interest in sailing since there are so many other ways to entertain yourself or because the AC is no longer a physical event of man v nature where things are constantly happening. Sorry to say this, I find the AC hours of boredom with little excitement until
something unexpected and catastrophic happens. Heck....we don't even see them change the sails anymore, that was an event itself!
For the record, I am a cruiser and not a racer which explains many of my ignorant statements.

Abe
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Old 21-01-2021, 10:17   #108
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
...more than once Team New Zealand has been compensated (yes, even paid actual cash as redress - millions I believe) after taking matters to arbitration due to unscrupulous acts by other parties during past Cup events.

These acts that were clearly aimed at directly disadvantaging Team New Zealand, and only Team New Zealand.

Doing something to directly disadvantage your opponent happens in all sports, that does not make it offensive or unscrupulous.


Now of course, that should be taken both offensive and unscrupulous, but perhaps also as a back handed compliment too...

These other parties were clearly so concerned about the Team New Zealand's design and sailing prowess that they were willing to do almost anything to weaken or break that, including crossing lines that were clearly both morally wrong, as well as not within the legal structure of the Cup event itself.

So yes, both unscrupulous and dishonest behavior has occurred even in recent Cup history.

That the ACAP ruled in favor of TNZ does not mean that there was unscrupulous or dishonest behavior, only that two sides disagreed about what was permitted and TNZ won the arbitration ruling. If the other team had already acted in a way which cost TNZ, an award could be made. that still does not proove unscrupulous or dishonest behavior.

All racing brings out strong competitive feelings and highly competitive people will use every rule to get an advantage. Unfortunately people see things in their own perspective. This is not dishonest or unscrupulous. I am not aware of rulings where dishonest or unscrupulous behavior was found. Maybe you can find these, I didn't (but I didn't spend much time on it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate;3324790...the feeling that [NYYC
they tweaked things to keep the winning streak going is pervasive...Do you think that TNZ’s creation of the new design and rule (together with LR as challenger of record) has provided them with a leg up in the design and build of their AC75s?
Utilizing the rules to keep an advantige may not be true sportsmanship but I don't think that means unscrupulous or dishonest.

And of course TNZ got a leg up with the new rule, but don't forget that Prada collaborated on that rule and also benefitted. The Deed of Gift allows the defender and challenger to agree on any part of the protocol, including what kind of boats will be used. So this is not underhanded or dishonest.

And remember that part of Prada's challenge included the condition that the next race was to be in monohulls.

People often want to make a case for dishonest shenanigans but I don't, on the whole, buy that, or conspiracy theories in general.
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Old 22-01-2021, 07:52   #109
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Besides the skipper and navigator a lot of these blokes are simply recruited because of their athleticism and not because of any sailing skills they might possess. I'll take the Vendée Globe any day over the Cup. These skippers are closer to the men who have sailed the oceans for a very long time. Skilled in all aspects of sailing, no matter the conditions. Match racing is on the whole pretty boring IMO. One cannot deny the new technology but when you need to wear protective helmets to sail, it seems so remote from what most of us on this forum identify with sailing.
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Old 22-01-2021, 08:08   #110
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

For those that think the America’s Cup has turned into only technology must have missed the news cycle that showed the crash of the American boat Patriot. The error that caused the crash was the fact that the port running back stay was not been eased. This perhaps was a failure in crew work. It may have bee mechanical failure. Never the less Patriot was performing a highly complex maneuver.

“Running Backstays” i remember in the late 1970’s! So i think your premise is not valid. These boats are still sailed by sailors. What has changed is these highly skilled sailors spend hours a day in the gym getting physically fit as they are sailing under great G forces. The same is true for Formula 1 drivers. They drive under great G forces and train for it as well. In the 1950’s It took a driver that had to work with more finesse and touch as there wee no G Forces or radial tires.
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Old 22-01-2021, 08:20   #111
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

I agree with the OP. I'm not saying this race isn't still a test of sailing, nor that new tech is bad. But it's lost much of its connection with the "regular sailor".

I used to be a passionate fan of the AC, even getting up in the wee hours of the morning to watch live. What I saw on the screen looked just like the sailing I was doing in local regattas, so it was easy to imagine myself being a part of it.

However, now I see contraptions that don't resemble anything I've ever seen in person, let alone sailed. I can't relate to their challenges or techniques. It's certainly a showcase of the latest in tech, but I feel it's no longer relevant to the everyday sailor.
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Old 22-01-2021, 08:32   #112
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

There was a suggestion that the racing be on a multidirectional course (like F1 car racing) which would put more emphasis on boat handling. I think this has merit. Also think that boats capsizing the way they have been reminds me of NASCAR !!
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Old 22-01-2021, 08:42   #113
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

For sure these are very exciting boats to watch. Awesome. But the AC is nominally supposed to be a match racing competition. Match racing should be about a pair of well-matched boats in close quarters boat-on-boat racing, where good tactics and clever use of the racing rules wins races. Slower boats makes for better match racing. The current and recent AC competitions have a bit of match racing to win the start (sometimes), then it tends to be a drag race, with the boat making the fewer mistakes winning. The present competition is all about keeping the boat on the foils - if one boat drops off while the other stays up, it very quickly turns into a huge gap. Of course, it can swing back the other way equally quickly, but these races aren't being won and lost as traditional match races. It's still a great spectacle, but it sometimes feels a bit like Formula 1 - ie. no one overtakes anymore and you either need to win off the grid or hope that the opposition crash - ultimately quite boring to watch, especially as the cars never look as fast on TV as they are in real life (that applies to the boats too - it's difficult to feel 45 knots on a TV screen).
Anyway, I'm off now to fit some foils to my Heron dinghy.
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Old 22-01-2021, 08:44   #114
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

I find the latest racing fascinating and exciting, it got me to thinking, I wonder what size foils I'd need to get my Bavaria 38C up and flying!
It's amazing how the mind is effected by this lockdown!
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Old 22-01-2021, 08:45   #115
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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Does anyone else but me think we should go back to having a race without so much technology where sailors actually use there sailing skills instead of using computers and sailboats that belong in space?
What turned me off was watching basically dedicated people on board peddling like they are on bicycles to transfer ballast...all the time.
And, the craft look like gizmos.
I don't watch.
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Old 22-01-2021, 09:16   #116
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

I couldn't agree more with you... this has become a battle between naval architects and grabbing as much sponsorship cash as is possible...I lost interest when these flimsy boats started breaking in half in a slight puff...
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Old 22-01-2021, 10:20   #117
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Regarding the "Simpler days" OP. I'm a bit of a romantic so, I lineup with the desire for simpler days. However, we left simpler days because we invented new technology. It's a battle between romantic tradition vs pushing the envelope. Both are valid.

At the moment, it doesn't seem like the technology is transferable to us "normal" folk but, some of it will. Look at all the common items we now enjoy that NASA invented.
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Old 22-01-2021, 10:45   #118
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

The race route is way too short. Its like 22 miles on boats doing 40 knots.
That's a series of drag races with a few turns in between.

A real race would be to go 500+ miles. That would change everything.
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Old 22-01-2021, 10:46   #119
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Americas Cup=Technology, I was in Newport in 1983 when we lost the cup to Australia because of its secret wing keel that they always kept shrouded and guarded. Now it’s carbon, Kevlar, foils, and incredible speed over 50 mph can you imagine......
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Old 22-01-2021, 11:48   #120
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Call me old fashioned, if you must, but I would prefer to see a return to the days of match racing in displacement monohulls. When was the last time you saw a pair of AC75s in a tacking duel? Get rid of the foils, and put the hulls back in the water, where they belong.
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