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Old 20-01-2021, 14:23   #91
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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...when the Defender allows some teams to compete against/train with other teams but specifically excludes one challenger from the process or when rules are written that pointedly disadvantage a particular challenger, skulduggery takes on a new meaning.

Imagine if ETNZ included in the rules that Ineos (for example) were only allowed to train alone and not participate in “practise racing”? In fact, the current rule has specified exactly the opposite - it excludes ETNZ from participating in the “practise racing” and official racing events.
Yes, some of the actions taken by past holders of the Cup have been absolutely shocking.

It's good that against all such disadvantages such holders were finally roundly and soundly beaten, fairly and squarely, and by innovation and sailing prowess, rather than skullduggery.

Even Patrizio Bertelli particularly commented on this in the America's Cup opening press conference - stating that the America's Cup appeared to have been going "in a strange way, down a strange road" and that "some" apparently thought it now had "owners" instead of challengers, defenders, and winners.

He agreed with Grant Dalton and Team New Zealand that the America's Cup should remain first and foremost a sporting event, and that together they would try to give the America's Cup back it's core identity.

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Old 20-01-2021, 14:46   #92
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Would a moth exist if not for the development of AC technology?
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Old 20-01-2021, 15:13   #93
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

They might as will go wild with designs. How can anyone quantitate what they can do. The largest brains and deepest pockets will probably develop something worthwhile. Lipton might not agree.
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Old 20-01-2021, 18:18   #94
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

I think they key to future AC races is to bring the costs down.
$100 mil per contestant is a tad over the top for most...

For a while there, I wasn't sure if the Kiwi's would have any takers for this cup challenge because of the costs involved. Just the location of NZ is challenging enough.

$100 mil has gotta be serious bucks...even for the super wealthy..is it an investment???

A dozen boats would be fun to watch....who knows what the future will hold ???

How do you top this extravaganza in boat design ???
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Old 20-01-2021, 18:37   #95
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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I think they key to future AC races is to bring the costs down.
$100 mil per contestant is a tad over the top for most...

For a while there, I wasn't sure if the Kiwi's would have any takers for this cup challenge because of the costs involved. Just the location of NZ is challenging enough.

$100 mil has gotta be serious bucks...even for the super wealthy..is it an investment???

A dozen boats would be fun to watch....who knows what the future will hold ???

How do you top this extravaganza in boat design ???
I think that these boats are so specialized, so technical, and tricky to sail (and support, back at the dock) that another America's Cup using the same type of boats won't be much cheaper. How many people in the world can even find the engineers and sailors, even if they have the money?

Probably, if NZL wins, they will use this formula again.

New York has already stated that they'd like to see 80-100' non-foiling monohulls, for which there is a lot more expertise in the design and sailing available.

Italy is also bitching about these boats even though they, as challenger of record, were involved in the concept and did in fact build the foil canting systems.

So where we go from here is unknown, but no matter what, I don't think it will be a lot cheaper, and I for one, don't care. This is not a spectator event. We don't need a dozen competitors so they can entertain the masses. The original concept was one mega rich challenger and one mega rich defender (although they did run selection trials to see who got to defend) and I'd be happy to see it go back to that..

The AC was not a regularly scheduled event. It happened when some guy overseas got up the urge to challenge.

Let's stop trying to get the AC to be another version of Formula 1, commercial and common. It doesn't need to be, and to remain the pinnacle of sailing, it shouldn't.
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Old 20-01-2021, 20:12   #96
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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The original concept was one mega rich challenger and one mega rich defender (although they did run selection trials to see who got to challenge) and I'd be happy to see it go back to that.
Fixed it for you

Please help me understand how the present AC format differs from the original concept that you’d like to see it go back to (other than the defender isn’t mega rich). Seems to me the concept is the same.
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Old 20-01-2021, 20:29   #97
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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Fixed it for you

Please help me understand how the present AC format differs from the original concept that you’d like to see it go back to (other than the defender isn’t mega rich). Seems to me the concept is the same.
"The original concept was one mega rich challenger and one mega rich defender (although they did run selection trials to see who got to challenge) and I'd be happy to see it go back to that."

No, You didn't fix it for me you, you got it wrong: NYC ran defender selection series long before the challengers got together with their own selection series.

But the point is that the present AC format is far different. It happened gradually with defender and challenger trials, in Newport and then Perth, continued in San Diego, and finally that idiot Ellison and his minion Coutts, decided that AC should be a regular, commercialy successful, spectacle with a focus on television, short stadium races, and money to be made by all, especially himself.

Now most pundits and casual observers opine that "It would be great to see a dozen challengers."

If so, drop the "America's Cup" name and have just another one design series. Meanwhile, take a quick look at the deed of gift.
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Old 20-01-2021, 20:41   #98
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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Perhaps skulduggery is a bridge too far . . . . Definition: Skulduggery- underhand, unscrupulous, or dishonest behaviour or activities.
Be mindful that my memory of the race goes back to when the New York Yacht club were running the event.
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Old 20-01-2021, 20:57   #99
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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Be mindful that my memory of the race goes back to when the New York Yacht club were running the event.
"Skulduggery- underhand, unscrupulous, or dishonest behaviour or activities"

So you are alluding to things the NYC did or that happened during the era that they ran the event?

Maybe you could back that up with facts?

But what I know is that in sailboat racing the competitors take on a very defensive and combatitive attitude. They get aggressive about every little thing they see the other team doing, and they often escalate issues to the point that we observers think it is absurd. Usually they see every issue from only thier own point of view. What we see as skulduggery or not depends on who's side we think we are on.

I see these things even at the lowest club racing level.

But I don't usually see actual unscrupulous or dishonest behaviour at the club level or at the AC level. Every one is doing what they think is justified and legitimate based on their perspective. It's only when we step back and see the bigger picture when we think maybe they went a step too far, but I wouldn't call the actions of any of these teams, past or present, as unscrupulous or dishonest.
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Old 20-01-2021, 22:46   #100
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Well, this is just a quick reply, so I'm not going to search for all the facts right now (they can easily be found online) but more than once Team New Zealand has been compensated (yes, even paid actual cash as redress - millions I believe) after taking matters to arbitration due to unscrupulous acts by other parties during past Cup events.

These acts that were clearly aimed at directly disadvantaging Team New Zealand, and only Team New Zealand.

Now of course, that should be taken both offensive and unscrupulous, but perhaps also as a back handed compliment too...

These other parties were clearly so concerned about the Team New Zealand's design and sailing prowess that they were willing to do almost anything to weaken or break that, including crossing lines that were clearly both morally wrong, as well as not within the legal structure of the Cup event itself.

So yes, both unscrupulous and dishonest behaviour has occurred even in recent Cup history.

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Old 20-01-2021, 23:45   #101
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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NYC ran defender selection series long before the challengers got together with their own selection series.
I concede that - I never knew of a defender selection series. I guess with the staggering costs involved it would be virtually impossible to see that happen today. No country, let alone yacht club is going to field two teams.

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. . . . and finally that idiot Ellison and his minion Coutts, decided that AC should be a regular, commercialy successful, spectacle with a focus on television, short stadium races, and money to be made by all, especially himself.
Do you seriously believe that Ellison made money out of the AC? I had the understanding that he poured many hundreds of millions of his own money into his AC campaigns. I’m probably wrong.

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If so, drop the "America's Cup" name and have just another one design series. Meanwhile, take a quick look at the deed of gift.
Something like SailGP - spearheaded by the minion Coutts and touted as the alternative to AC.
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Old 20-01-2021, 23:58   #102
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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I concede that - I never knew of a defender selection series. I guess with the staggering costs involved it would be virtually impossible to see that happen today. No country, let alone yacht club is going to field two teams.







Do you seriously believe that Ellison made money out of the AC? I had the understanding that he poured many hundreds of millions of his own money into his AC campaigns. I’m probably wrong.







Something like SailGP - spearheaded by the minion Coutts and touted as the alternative to AC.

Prior to A2 winning in 1983, it was commonly considered that the defender trials were by far tougher than the challenger trials. I believe it was only the 12m era (actually, not until 1967) that ushered in multiple challengers and later multiple boats per challenger team - prior to that it was just deed of gift single boat challenges and only the defender (NYYC) had selection trials. Once they moved onto the IACC boats the costs went up and multi-boat teams disappeared.

SailGP is no alternative to the AC as they are (now) effectively one design boats and fleet race.

As others have said, AC is an event like no other where big egos and big wallets clash so as to be able to drink champagne from an arguably ugly silver trophy. Other than that it must take place in boats, it was never intended to have anything to do with the rest of the sailing world.
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Old 20-01-2021, 23:59   #103
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Hi wingssail,

Attempts to exclude aluminium hulls, bendy masts, the gap in the waterline thing, rules on domestic manufacture, decisions on class measurements. The problem with the NYYC was not just the rules set but how they were interpreted. All the controversies served to keep the lead ups to the race interesting even if the races themselves were often as exciting as watching grass grow.
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Old 21-01-2021, 01:49   #104
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

Does anyone else remember the phrase " Britain rules the waves and the New York YC waives the rules"? As an outsider, I can only guess at the inside subterfuges that were invoked to keep the cup "home" at the NYYC, but the feeling that they tweaked things to keep the winning streak going is pervasive.

As a Yank I felt somewhat treasonous cheering the Aussies on when the unthinkable happened... but then as now, I believe that upset was the best thing that ever happened in the history of the AC.

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Old 21-01-2021, 02:29   #105
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Re: Americas Cup and simpler days

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Does anyone else remember the phrase " Britain rules the waves and the New York YC waives the rules"? As an outsider, I can only guess at the inside subterfuges that were invoked to keep the cup "home" at the NYYC, but the feeling that they tweaked things to keep the winning streak going is pervasive.

As a Yank I felt somewhat treasonous cheering the Aussies on when the unthinkable happened... but then as now, I believe that upset was the best thing that ever happened in the history of the AC.

Jim

Yes, that upset finally broke the back of the blatant defender bias in successive interpretations of the protocol. When SNG won the cup they tried to turn the clock back with some of the worst excesses of defender hubris protocol mangling. Thankfully TNZ eventually got it back.

Though I’m sure the challengers still consider that the defender stacks the deck their way. Do you think that TNZ’s creation of the new design and rule (together with LR as challenger of record) has provided them with a leg up in the design and build of their AC75s?
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