Americas Cup and simpler days

[wekajohn]

I agree as an ex-aviation expert that it is not that easy watching sailing boats trying to fly, anymore than it would be watching airplanes trying to be boats. But I am getting old, and must admit that my opinions can be outdated. The cockpit of a modern combat, or even ordinary aircraft is so different from what I worked on in my day, that I would probably need a week to get up to speed.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by wekajohn

I agree as an ex-aviation expert that it is not that easy watching sailing boats trying to fly, anymore than it would be watching airplanes trying to be boats. But I am getting old, and must admit that my opinions can be outdated. The cockpit of a modern combat, or even ordinary aircraft is so different from what I worked on in my day, that I would probably need a week to get up to speed.

With the glass cockpits there's probably an app you can download to make it look like a tiger moth cockpit.

[sailingabe41ds]

Look...its a real sailboat with real sails!!!

Sorry, could not help myself.

Can you ID the yacht?

Abe

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

Look...its a real sailboat with real sails!!!

Sorry, could not help myself.

Can you ID the yacht?

Abe

Nope, can't ID, but can predict that it was owned by a VERY rich person, had a professional crew of perhaps 20 deckies and a talented skipper (also a pro) plus a dedicated shore support team.. , the owner was likely not on board most of the time and it was state of the current art in design and materials.

similar in many ways to todays competitors.

Jim

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

Look...its a real sailboat with real sails!!!

Sorry, could not help myself.

Can you ID the yacht?

Abe

The original Schooner America.
(a later image I think, possibly after she was extended and re-rigged)

But it was about a 'real yacht' with 'real sails' compared to the average boat of the day as the AC75s are to normal boats these days too - ie: not at all.

See my earlier post referring to this here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3323173

Here's an extract:

- In 1851 schooner America was commissioned for the first challenge. She cost 30,000 USD, a huge sum at the time, and a contractual clause was that she be 'the fastest yacht in the United States' - if not the final purchase could be refused.

- She was rigged with flat-cut, machine-woven cotton sails. Most boats of the era set fuller, looser-footed flax sails. Make no mistake, this was a purpose built high tech cutting edge racing yacht for her day, with no other object but to go to England and win. She clocked a 284nm day run across the Atlantic. The schooner America was a rocketship.



PS: in addition to Jim's well noted points above, America also had a separate set of 'race sails'. She didn't cross the Atlantic and then go on to race with the same sails and in the same state of trim.

As is common with modern high level racing campaigns the boat went through a 'mini refit' as part of it's preparation in the UK. Even the rigs were pulled and checked, etc, before restepping and bending on the racing sails.

Again, nothing at all in common with any normal or every day man's boat of the era.

Sadly there is this continuing misnomer that 'it's all changed' and chants of 'heresy' regarding the modern events, when in fact the America's Cup has mostly always been like this even since way back in 1851.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thinwater

...Watch it or don't. It has no more to do with Saturday afternoon sailing than Formula 1 in Monaco has to do with my driving to 7-11

You see, I think that is wrong. If you shut your eyes and listen to the on-board chatter it sounds exactly like the chatter on my boat on a Saturday afternoon.

"Is he going to cross?"

"Yes, looks like it, we can push a lttle, but we need to make the gate in one [jibe]"

"Puff coming in 5, bear off ,we almost got him"

"Come on boys, let's do it."

"Green!! I can't believe there is no protest!"

Today we sailed in a Wednesday Beer can race. Same sport, lower speeds.

What they are doing in Auckland has EVERYTHING to do with what we are doing on Saturday afternoon, and honestly, on our boat there is no time to go below for a beer and a chat.

[jmh2002]

Somewhat exciting 30 second video showing just how dynamic these boats are.

It was quite puffy out on the water yesterday.

Emirates Team NZ | Near Miss!!! | 28th Jan 2021:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu9lg9YYTcM

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Somewhat exciting 30 second video showing just how dynamic these boats are.

It was quite puffy out on the water yesterday.

Emirates Team NZ | Near Miss!!! | 28th Jan 2021:

Interesting how after the boat rears up and comes back down, it doesn’t lose any speed at all. Is that hull design or is it just really good boat handling? A rear-up like that on any of the challengers generally results in a dramatic loss of boat speed and falling well away from their chosen course.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Interesting how after the boat rears up and comes back down, it doesn’t lose any speed at all. Is that hull design or is it just really good boat handling? A rear-up like that on any of the challengers generally results in a dramatic loss of boat speed and falling well away from their chosen course.

I think they didn't lose grip totally as you often see in other examples, so it was more of a splash down than a complete crash off the foils. Also it was windy so there was enough pressure to keep speed on even off the foils.

[jmh2002]

Here is another neat video of ETNZ, very close up this time. Great footage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcr2C5vvqOs

[jmh2002]

And a couple of Patriot from Friday's racing.

All the boat's have this problem of the rudder foil being able to lose grip if you get too high or otherwise ventilate (not much different to spinning out on a normal mono), it's a characteristic of the design.

But Patriot seems to always have had more woes with it. That boat might be fast but it always looks 'nervous' to me, relatively speaking and compared to the other competitors.

So, rudder loss of grip > loss of lift aft > stern down > bow up > and then the bow can 'leap' as we have seen multiple times.

The first video really catches it nicely from ahead.

The second video seems to show more of just a general handling/foil control issue.

It's going to be very light air today, Saturday, so Patriot might be happier as they get to grips with the boat again - although it may end up being so light as to not be able to race at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_QOz4osiYI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yicE_2sCag4

[Rod Headlee]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

I have not followed Americas Cup for a long time. Then I looked at some of those sailboats and thought "what the heck are those things".
Does anyone else but me think we should go back to having a race without so much technology where sailors actually use there sailing skills instead of using computers and sailboats that belong in space?
IMHO....I would love to see simpler sailboats sailed by sailors who can use there sailing skills and who actually are citizens of the country where the sailboat was built.
I also do not see the average citizen as interested in Americas Cup as before...and again I think it has to do with what I mentioned above.


Best,

Abe

We turned it on last night and we were highly disappointed. The should name it the Google Cup or the Apple Cup or something. There is a place for this type of racing I just think it doesn't belong in The America's Cup. I voted with my feet and changed the channel.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Rod Headlee

We turned it on last night and we were highly disappointed. The should name it the Google Cup or the Apple Cup or something. There is a place for this type of racing I just think it doesn't belong in The America's Cup. I voted with my feet and changed the channel.

What does belong in the America's Cup in your opinion then?

As I have posted many times in this thread and others, including with the appropriate historical facts, the America's Cup has always been about the top echelon of boats and sailing, just as we are also now seeing today.

Nothing has really changed.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is unfortunately mistaken.

[sailingabe41ds]

"...anyone who thinks otherwise is unfortunately mistaken"....Wow...I guess the debate and discussion is over.

Abe

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

"...anyone who thinks otherwise is unfortunately mistaken"....Wow...I guess the debate and discussion is over.

Abe

Well, that's the thing, there isn't really any debate necessary, only a correct checking of the historical facts of the America's Cup.

And this is where there seems to be many misunderstandings, that kept being repeated ad infinitum.

That the America's Cup used to be sailed in some type of every day man's boat, that it was accessible to all, that it was gentleman's racing, that it was about sailors skill and not boat design or technology (and implying that there is no sailors skill now, 'it's all computers'), etc, etc, etc.

And these assumptions and/or assertions that sadly keep being repeated are simply incorrect.

As I mentioned, please read my previous posts, eg here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3323173 (there was even a link to it just a few posts above...) or of course you are most welcome to research the history yourself and come to the similar conclusions.

This type of high level racing, at the ultra level of yachts, design, technology, budget, and sailors skill has always been what the America's Cup is about.

And that is what we are still seeing today.