Albin Ballad 30 for bluewater cruising

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "Is it production boat? Who builds it?"

The type is called a "Fraser 30". There weren't all that many of them turned out, and they came from a "yard" - literally. T'was Ari DeKleer's "back yard" (in the usual sense of that term). Ari and his brother Len had come here from Holland around the same time that I came from Denmark. The DeKleers had raced Flying Dutchman (Olympic two-man) dinghies back in Holland. If it's a good hard shot of adrenalin that turns your crank, don't mess with cruising boats. Go fly a Dutchman :-)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQlvhjdCCRs

Ari and Len started turning out FDs here, but couldn't get the class off the ground because back then there wasn't really a dinghy racing tradition in Vancouver. We were too busy earning a living. I bought a "frozen snot" Enterprise dinghy for my university sailing club, which I had started, and in my basement we built two more from plywood. I passed on to other things, but Len and Ari took to building the Frasers. The boats were sold as "bare hulls" and "owner finished" with the result that the finishing standards vary greatly from boat to boat. Around 1980 Len and Ari got "footitis" and this is the result (you will find the numbers for the Fraser 30 there):

https://sailboatdata.com/builder/dek...industries-ltd

Several of the 30s have made circumnavigations and many of the larger ones have. I think, personally, that the Endurance ketch is the absolute cat's meow!

The hulls are built like the proverbial chic brickhouse. But there is no need for me to write up from scratch what is so ably set forth here:

https://www.nauticapedia.ca/Articles/DeKleer.php

I have no idea of the provenance of the lines of the Fraser30, but Ari was a carpenter by trade and Len an engineer. It is entirely possible that one of them, or both of them in collaboration, drew the lines for the Fraser 30 since most of us back then could knock out a creditable set of lines give a list of design desiderata. It is also possible, through whatever arrangement I wouldn't know, that the Fraser 30 hull was knock-off of something like the Grampian 30. There doesn't seem to be a lines drawing available anywhere, and I have no interest in investing the time it would take to take off the lines of TP. The S/D is about 14, and, for the Salish sea, that is a pittance. I'd like to have twice that :-) Which sets the stage for "further discussion" :-)! But for what is so misleadingly called "bluewater" boats it would (usually) be good enuff. And sometimes too much!

So while we are in the realm of numbers and ratios. Don't, Dok, get too hung up on the numbers that guide yacht designers while they are doing the designing. The "Comfort Ratio" is a giggle. Ted Brewer and I have had quite a few beers together, and quit a few laughs about how easy it is to sell "the public" a bill of goods :-) The long and the short of it is that NO 30 footer is "comfortable" in the landsman's sense of the word. Not at any time :-)!

What about the CSF, then? Hm... Think about it! The WIND cannot (ever) capsize a sailboat. There comes a point of heel where the heeling force of the wind is balanced exactly by the righting force of the ballast. And that is the heel the boat will stay at! But, as I said, think about it! The PROJECTED sail area is ever diminishing as the boat heels more and more, while the RIGHTING MOMENT grows greater and greater as the boat heels. By the time you are heeled 90º the heeling force of the wind is ZERO (however hard it blows!), and the righting force is at its maximum possible when the keel in horizontal.

Might make note here that the CSF is a CYA ratio. No, that doesn't mean "Canadian Yachting Association" You know EXACTLY what it means! If came about because the Race Management Committee for the Fastnet race back in the late '70 was a little too brave for the good of the racers. Many drowned and numerous boats foundered because the committee failed to call off or delay the race. So for the next year they dreamed up an apparently scientific (tho for the cruising man meaningless) ratio they could use as a target ratio that boats must meet in order to be permitted to race. That is the CSF.

No sensible cruising man ever presses his boat hard enuff that he needs to think about what the magic CSF number is :-)

It is, as I said, never the wind that capsizes a sailboat. Sailboats get rolled over when they "broach" (turn sideways to the run of the waves), get picked up as the wave breaks due to the boat "disturbing" it. The boat then gets tossed onto its side (or its deck even) into the trough of the wave.

So for your present purposes, just ignore such exotica :-).

I'll see if I can get back on track this pee-em and deal with the anchoring question. It was you who asked it, wasn't it?

TP

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "Is it production boat? Who builds it?"

...

It is, as I said, never the wind that capsizes a sailboat. Sailboats get rolled over when they "broach" (turn sideways to the run of the waves), get picked up as the wave breaks due to the boat "disturbing" it. The boat then gets tossed onto its side (or its deck even) into the trough of the wave.
...


TP

I am aware of that and make a demo on boat stability, buoyancy, Angle of Vanishing Stability, Righting Moment and effects of wind, waves (freak ones also) and distribution of boat load weights for my students on RYA Day Skipper Practical course that I do. For a boat I use a champagne cork with a coin as a keel, toothpick as a mast and a bowl with water as sea.

Thanks for your story about Fraser 30 and great Flying Dutchman video. It would be great if you have a video how you deploy an anchor on you boat as well!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by dokondr

You wrote before: "I would be leery of taking this boat offshore." meaning Ballad. I don't understand how you conclude that J-30 is equal to Ballad when Ballad has better value of Capsize Screening Formula (CSF).

Ah, I think I see where the communication problem is.

When you are sailing there are multiple failure modes.

The CSF addresses one of those modes. Specifically capsize. Capsize has a specific meaning, it doesn't mean the boat breaks up and sinks, it means the boat rolls over. Not necessarily fully turtled, but at least to the point that the mast is in the water (knock-down). If a boat capsizes, breaking the mast is a significant possibility, but not guaranteed. Some boats have been rolled 360 without losing their masts, either thru luck or heavy construction. If a boat is rolled to the turtled position, it may stay there for a while, depends on the boat, the wave that capsized it and the general size of the waves. How long a monohull remains inverted apparently is related to its Angle of Vanishing Stability (AVS). With a lower AVS you may be almost as stable inverted as upright and to be turned back upright it will take a wave almost as big as the one that capsized you. With a higher AVS a smaller wave is likely to be able to upright the boat, and smaller waves are more common than big waves so you are likely to be rolled upright more quickly.

Capsize is generally not a problem in shore where there isn't enough fetch for really big waves to form. To capsize a monohull the waves need to be big enough and they need to be breaking. So that often means wind against current or waves encountering shoal waters, or multiple wave systems encountering each other at an angle that creates occasional "Rouge" waves much bigger than the rest of the wave trains. To get big enough you generally need to be offshore with a fetch of hundreds of miles. If you are on the coast with waves coming from offshore you may be at risk. "Freak" weather events can do this in somewhat more compact areas too.

Wind alone will not capsize a monohull unless it has a very low AVS. Probably in the 90-100deg range. I have seen photos of a J24 knocked-down with crew standing on the keel trying to help it right. I recall reading that the J24 has an AVS of 93 or 95.

Whether the boat is likely to capsize is unrelated to how strong it is and CSF does not address strength, only the relative likelihood of capsize.


The strength of the hull on the other hand is related to its ability to resist damaging loads, and lower loads that do not cause immediate damage, but cause fatigue damage over time. A boat offshore will encounter waves banging into the hull repeatedly for days on end, constantly flexing and bending parts of the hull. No single wave impact is likely to damage the hull unless you are in a breaking wave. Over time fatigue from the smaller waves will build up. With fiberglass if you repeatedly stress it to 45% of it's original bending strength you will get about 1,000 cycles before it starts to experience fatigue failure.

For bending, strength is related to the second power of the thickness. Fatigue life tends to follow an asymptotic curve, that is a slight increase in strength results in a large increase in fatigue life. So a slight increase in thickness can result in a big increase in fatigue life. A heavier boat probably has thicker fiberglass.

So, if you increase the thickness of the panel by a third, the same load will only stress the panel to 25% of it's original ultimate strength and it will last for about 100,000 cycles of that same load before failure. Doubling the thickness of the panel will decrease the load to about 11% and it will be able to survive billions of cycles.

My comparing the Ballad to the other 2 was about strength, not capsize resistance. The strength of a whole boat is a very complex issue, different parts of a given boat may be over-designed and other parts under-designed and even that would depend on the expected loads. It would take naval architects weeks on end to evaluate and argue out among themselves the merits and problems of any given boat for a given expected voyage. If you assume 2 are built with similar workmanship and similar care in design, then it seems reasonable that weight is a good proxy in comparing how strong 1 boat is relative to another. The boats I compared the Ballad to are similar in length and weight so it is reasonable to assume they are similarly strong. I know both to be aimed at racing and therefore built more lightly to achieve better speeds. That is not to say they are too weak to go offshore, but more care and consideration should be taken and perhaps some upgrades.

If you take a boat offshore capsize resistance is just one of the things to consider. Strength is another. Looking at the non-ballast hull weight will give you an idea of general strength but you should still look at specific things like rudder build, mast scantlings, rigging sizes, rudder attachment, perhaps add stiffeners to the inside of the bow, perhaps the tabbing of the bulkheads should be reinforced, hull-deck joint....

Beyond strength you should look at cockpit drainage.

SA/D ratio which is indicative of whether the boat will make OK mileage in light winds or if you are likely to consider starting the engine regularly, in which case you should carry more fuel.

Sail choice is probably going to have a bigger impact than Comfort Ratio. Is your boat set up for a single person to easily reef the main? What do you have for a light air foresail? Downwind a spinnaker is probably the fastest but setting and dousing generally requires at least a 2nd person. Doing it in the dark or heavy weather runs the risk of errors and damaging the boat. Spinnakers don't go upwind so you will need a light wind sail to go upwind. Most cruisers don't use symmetrical spinnakers, instead using CodeZeros, cruising chutes of various flavors or drifters, all of which are much easier set and douse short-handed and which can go upwind to greater or lesser extent.

The Ballard has an SA/D of 16.1 which would be adequate, but the boat is light to begin with so adding the same stores of water, fuel, crew and personal gear on the boat will slow it down more than a heavier boat that has an SA/D of 16.1. I would add fuels storage or find a way to set larger sails for light air. Ways to improve the Ballad's sail area without spending stupid money are to lengthen the boom and to add a bowsprit so sail area is added front and back and steering balances. You would need a new main, or at least a new to you main. There are plenty of places to buy used sails in the US if that is where you are. The existing jib and genoa could stay on the existing forestay and the light air foresail could set from the sprit and a spinnaker halyard and would need to be sized for that.

The line drawing shows the Ballard having provisions for an inner foresail (staysail). If your boat doesn't have that strongly consider adding a removable inner forestay and backstays. The extra rigging provides redundant support to the mast in heavy weather. The staysail is easier to deal with further back from the bow and the sail area set back closer to the mast will match the reefed main being closer to the mast so the steering will stay balanced as sail is reduced.

There are a whole bunch of things to consider for offshore. CSF and Comfort Ratio are the barest beginnings of making an educated guess as to how well a boat will do offshore. Good luck.

I would suggest that you update your profile to indicate your approximate location and that you are looking to buy a Ballad. Those bits of info display under your UserName in the webview and it saves repeatedly answering those questions since boat and location influence the answers to a lot of questions.

[barnakiel]

Maybe Joe or Margaret would be unwilling to take an Albin Ballad offshore.


But Sven and Bjorn do so every single year. I normally see a handful of these sailed out towards the Caribbean by young Swedes. I do not think they all sink or something. We would have heard.


In fact, I cannot recall any recent offshore tragedy where a Ballad was the culprit.



Joe and Margaret may simply wait, keep on saving and buy an Oyster 80 when they retire. Not that at that age they would be willing to take any offshore risks, but Oysters have very good CSF and give you clear bragging advantage at any waterfront bar.


Ballads are perfectly adequate for offshore sailing.


"If you want better stability, do not buy a boat, buy an island."


barnakiel

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Ah, I think I see where the communication problem is.

When you are sailing there are multiple failure modes.

The CSF addresses one of those modes. Specifically capsize. Capsize has a specific meaning, it doesn't mean the boat breaks up and sinks, it means the boat rolls over.

...


My comparing the Ballad to the other 2 was about strength, not capsize resistance. The strength of a whole boat is a very complex issue,
Beyond strength you should look at cockpit drainage.

...


SA/D ratio which is indicative of whether the boat will make OK mileage in light winds or if you are likely to consider starting the engine regularly, in which case you should carry more fuel.

Sail choice is probably going to have a bigger impact than Comfort Ratio.
There are a whole bunch of things to consider for offshore. CSF and Comfort Ratio are the barest beginnings of making an educated guess as to how well a boat will do offshore. Good luck.
...

Adeli, thanks for your detailed account of what comes into play when selecting offshore boat. It was great, to the point! You have covered almost everything.
As I wrote before I am RYA Cruising Instructor and aware of these issues. I do a demo on boat stability, buoyancy, Angle of Vanishing Stability, Righting Moment and effects of wind, waves (freak ones also) and distribution of boat load weights for my students on RYA Day Skipper Practical course that I do. For a boat I use a champagne cork with a coin as a keel, toothpick as a mast and a bowl with water as sea :-)

In my previous post I just compared CSF of Ballad with CSF's of two other boats you wrote about, not going into other factors.
As for Ballad hull and rigging strength, storage and cockpit drainage all these were successfully tested and verified by numerous offshore passages and several circumnavigations.

My main concerns with Ballad old boats are:
- Sandwich deck, bullhead attachment to hull and shrouds to deck attachment
- Keel step rust
- Ground tackle

Other things, such as inner forestay, storm sails, wind-vane, etc. can be done.

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Maybe Joe or Margaret would be unwilling to take an Albin Ballad offshore.


But Sven and Bjorn do so every single year. I normally see a handful of these sailed out towards the Caribbean by young Swedes. I do not think they all sink or something. We would have heard.


In fact, I cannot recall any recent offshore tragedy where a Ballad was the culprit.



Joe and Margaret may simply wait, keep on saving and buy an Oyster 80 when they retire. Not that at that age they would be willing to take any offshore risks, but Oysters have very good CSF and give you clear bragging advantage at any waterfront bar.


Ballads are perfectly adequate for offshore sailing.


"If you want better stability, do not buy a boat, buy an island."


barnakiel

Quote: "Ballads are perfectly adequate for offshore sailing." - Agree 100% !
Quote: "If you want better stability, do not buy a boat, buy an island." - Great saying, thanks barnakiel!

[Tonali99]

Originally Posted by dokondr

Many thanks for your kind advice, Trente! Really helpful.
After getting the boat ready I plan to single-handedly sail her from France where she is now to Tenerife, Canaries, where I work occasionally as RYA Cruising Instructor and where I plan to bring my grandchildren for a vacation once in a while to sail with me around the islands.
I singlehand quite a bit on smaller and bigger (up to 40 feet) boats and Ballad looks like a nice, seaworthy boat that is able to take me there, I hope.
Just waiting this virus thing at least somewhat over to get to the boat. And meanwhile getting all info (money and work-wise) I need to make my Ballad ready :-)

You do seem to have the knowledge for this. kind of wonder about the comfort level though. You stated the weight is 3.5 tons? I'm 35' and 8 ton, 5' swells at 10 or 12 sec is a joy. 5X5 is a rough ride. More than that is downright scary.
Might me just me, but I do not like the boom in the water.

[MagnusS]

Originally Posted by dokondr

Hi all!

I plan to buy Albin Ballad 30 mostly for single-handed sailing, cruising with my kids sometimes and eventually living on the boat all by myself.
Albin Ballad is considered by many as the racer which is now rated as an ocean cruiser, seaworthy, her beam contributes to the stiffness and she is a well designed (configured, laid out) boat.
I have read quite a bit about the boat yet still have some questions:
- What are Ballad wind force and wave height limits? Her free-board is quite low, what height is it? With a small jib and reefed main she will outsail anything the similar size and age when pointing. Stiff as a rock! I have successfully raced her in 22 m/s
- Problems for single-handling? Use Furlex and reefing arrangements Y can do from cockpit. Rudder is big enough to steer in low speeds.
- Is Ballad hard to steer in heavy weather ? What is heavy weather for Ballad? Start rolling in the furlex, flatten the main seriously before reefing. If heeling is above 20 degrees she is hard on the tiller, but the n you have not reeffed enough. Still, she obeys order from the rudder. When she becomes a very wet boat? Against the wind pointing, she wets herself, but staying behind the sprayhood using the tiller that kan be used from there it is not a serious problem.
- How does she sail downwind?
- Do all Ballad models, including latest ones, have a sandwich deck? Yes. But some years Albin had glued the ceiling liner to the deck using a small-looped glassfibre mat and it causes a crckling sound when one walks omn teh deck. That is not delamination, and can be cured with polyurethan foam carefully injected from the underside and then supported from underside untill curing. (It expands!)
- Mast is keel stepped. How hard is it to drain water from bilges near mast step? How to make the hole where mast goes through the deck water tight? Through deck is tightened using a rubber collar. But the mast must be made watertight inside at deck level with drain holes to prevent water from entering inside
- Important questions about ground tackle. All pictures of Ballads I have seen so far, show no anchor and no anchor locker on the bow. They have anchors stowed in cockpit locker. Anchor is attached to a short chain (how long and how big is it?) that in turn is attached to some sort of a tape coiled on a stern pushpit. How do they use anchor on a bow? Is it possible to make a proper ground tackle on the bow? Where to store chain in this case? In my case it is important to have a heavy enough anchor with at least 30 meters of chain to anchor from the bow, which makes it impossible to drag all this from a stern locker to the bow when you need to anchor. How to solve anchoring problems on Ballad?
- Auxiliary. The boat I am looking for has Yanmar 2GM engine with 500 work hours. Engine has direct sea water cooling system. Most probably cooling needs replacement because of the rust. Is cooling channels replacement possible with this engine and how much will it approximately cost? Take out engine, clean all rusty channels inside, install externa fresh water cooling. 500 hrs, should not wear it out.
- How big are diesel and water tanks? Diesel 30 liter, water 50 liter.
- Pictures show heads located close to the bow without any door in sight. Is it so, or heads have a sliding door? Same door is used as between cabin and forepeak, it does not close to the latter though.
- What problems to look for when buying Ballad? Check thet the GRP has not loosened around the keel lead by tapping.
- Is there any Ballad specific forum in English? https://balladklubben.se/balladexchange/

Many thanks for any info on Ballads!

See red notes

[Michael Cobbe]

show no anchor and no anchor locker on the bow. They have anchors stowed in cockpit locker. Anchor is attached to a short chain (how long and how big is it?) that in turn is attached to some sort of a tape coiled on a stern pushpit. How do they use anchor on a bow?



I wouldn't go near a boat like that what yuu need is chain and a locker. I used the lengths required so that the catenary held the boat and the anchor was a backup. What I used in shallow water was 20 times depth, medium depth 15 tines depth, deep water 8 times depth.

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by MagnusS

See red notes

A lot of valuable info, thanks! What about Ballad mast truss problem? Is it inevitable? As I understand, it is really hard to check mast truss without taking the mast and step off completely.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by dokondr

A lot of valuable info, thanks! What about Ballad mast truss problem? Is it inevitable? As I understand, it is really hard to check mast truss without taking the mast and step off completely.

Fix your mast truss - Triola - Albin Ballad #50


It is very easy to inspect before buying. If it is corroded, you can either deduct repair cost from the price or else step off buy another.


BTW If you want to move the boat South. The passage from the continent to Tenerife is not done in the winter nor in early spring.


b.
Las Palmas, Gran Canaria

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by Tonali99

You do seem to have the knowledge for this. kind of wonder about the comfort level though. You stated the weight is 3.5 tons? I'm 35' and 8 ton, 5' swells at 10 or 12 sec is a joy. 5X5 is a rough ride. More than that is downright scary.
Might me just me, but I do not like the boom in the water.

What do you mean by '5x5'? 5' swell at 5 sec?

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Fix your mast truss - Triola - Albin Ballad #50


It is very easy to inspect before buying. If it is corroded, you can either deduct repair cost from the price or else step off buy another.


BTW If you want to move the boat South. The passage from the continent to Tenerife is not done in the winter nor in early spring.


b.
Las Palmas, Gran Canaria

The problem is that even if you don't have mast trust ruined now it will inevitably happen to your boat later .


QUOTE: "BTW If you want to move the boat South. The passage from the continent to Tenerife is not done in the winter nor in early spring."


Yes, I know, thanks !

[Tonali99]

Originally Posted by dokondr

What do you mean by '5x5'? 5' swell at 5 sec?

You got it right.
Swells are generally long period. Smooth and no breaking crests.
As to 5 X 5 I meant those that are cresting and breaking, curling into themselves. Very steep waves. Quite the rough ride. Slows progress a lot too.
In the right circumstance, for the wave, you can lose the wind in a trough and get blown hard at the crest.
*
Enjoy the ride

[NormanMartin]

Interesting thread and I love Barnikel's early observation. The Albin Ballad is a favorite of mine for so many reasons. I think a good version of one will make a handy voyager.

I have a lot of J30 miles under me and here are a couple thoughts. They are seaworthy.

On a sail home from Bermuda to Newport it was rough and the boat was never "scary." What was trouble is the unbalanced rudder. On a strong reach they are a bear to steer. Our arms were so sore so quickly.

I know the designer and have other J-Boat experience. Generally, I like J-Boats a lot. I like the J30 but would never pick it for voyaging because it is so hard to steer in a blow. Their nicest small cruiser, I think, is the J28 but good luck finding one for sale.

Meanwhile, keep well, to all a happy 2021.
Norm