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Old 16-08-2017, 08:31   #1
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advice Install inner forestay

I have roller furling on a cape dory 28 and I wish to install an inner forestay so I can use a hank on storm jib.

I believe it is called a solent stay ?

I would really appreciate any help and photos from someone who has installed an inner fore stay.

Thanks,

arch
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Old 16-08-2017, 09:28   #2
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

If you do any kind of searching, you'll come up with tons of threads, but here's some info to get you started.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-127556.html
https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...y_11824-1.html
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Old 16-08-2017, 11:00   #3
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

I keep procrastinating on this because I draw a nice line from the V-berth bulkhead to the mast, parallel to the forestay - and it intersects smack through the middle of the radar. Would probably have to drop the mast to lower the radar. Nothing is ever easy. I guess it doesn't really have to be parallel, but that could lead to weird sheeting angles... Doing a solent stay instead would avoid that problem, and any concern about running backstays, but there is no structure on my foredeck to attach one to.

So, the first step, either way, is general reinforcement of the foredeck and bulkhead, which is needed anyway for the ground tackle, and then potentially incorporating a sprit for a future asymmetric, better anchor roller... this quickly becomes a four-body problem. The solution hasn't become clear to me yet.

Through patient scanning of craigslist, I did recently acquire a set of "new" (30-y/o never used) storm sails that fit my boat. So I guess I'd better get on the ball and figure out some way to rig them!

(Here I was trying to work out whether I could also fit a useful "working jib" to the proposed inner forestay and "slutterize" my boat. I have some old hank-on jibs that could be cut down... Seems like the sail area would end up being a bit small.)
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Old 16-08-2017, 17:42   #4
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

I have a baby stay. Remember it is removable for some of those times you don't want it. If you can fit a roller on that'll help you tack the genn all those times when you won't be using the storm try.

The only discussion I would add on the sail plan in orange is the way I've seen those diagrammed elsewhere is that the 2nd reef point and the storm sail have their heads at the same height. This is likely for more even loading / better motion via reduced yaw.

Skip Novak has a good piece on this over on Yachting World. Can give you another perspective at least.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/video/s...torm-sails-517
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Old 16-08-2017, 18:07   #5
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

I drew the trysl at the height it would have to be hoisted for the tack to clear the flaked main. (I know - modding the boat to fit a sail is the backwards way to do it...) Not sure why the looong drop to the clew on these, unless it is just to put as much of the area low as possible. Seems to be out of fashion on newer sails? Hmm... that actually puts the clew right behind the trailing edge of the (not shown) dodger. Probably not the safest arrangement...

I haven't actually got the measurements of my reefs on hand. Doesn't seem to be on the sailmaker's invoice. I told him to "use his discretion," as he knows more about it than me. Have only been in "second reef" territory a couple of times this year.
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Old 17-08-2017, 12:20   #6
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

In terms of sizing your storm canvas, as well as what features it should have, etc. It’s worth doing some study, as it’s not uncommon to find sailmakers having zero experience in truly heavy weather.Nor being able to well assess where the CE of each sail should be so that you have minimal lee & weather helm.

There’s some info in the Dashew’s books, which are free www.setsail.com/free-books And The Sailmaker’s Apprentice is another outstanding one.Plus visiting the websites of some of the top tier cruising sail, sailmakers doesn’t hurt either.Or possibly even having them make you a sail.
A couple of other resources are US Sailing, & ORC – The Offshore Racing Council. As they detail a lot of this info, though you have to be choosy about some of it, as the storm canvas which the latter 2 recommend tends to be fairly large.

FYI, on the stay, read the links in my above post. And note that you can attach the new stay in the Solent position up top, but to the deck in a Cutter Stay position, meaning further aft than a Solent Stay.As, for the most part the sail won’t know the difference.
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Old 17-08-2017, 17:44   #7
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

Unless you are installing the stay to reinforce the mast your sail maker can incorporate the stay in the sail. Clip it on a reinforced deck pad-eye and raise it with the stay-sail halyard. When done, lower it and store away.

If the stay-sail is large and attached significantly above the spreaders you might consider a running back.
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Old 17-08-2017, 18:41   #8
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhyachts View Post
Unless you are installing the stay to reinforce the mast your sail maker can incorporate the stay in the sail. Clip it on a reinforced deck pad-eye and raise it with the stay-sail halyard. When done, lower it and store away.

If the stay-sail is large and attached significantly above the spreaders you might consider a running back.
IMO, this is a poor solution. Hoisting a free flying sail in strong wind conditions, the sort of conditions where this sail might be employed, is difficult and somewhat dangerous. Further, it is extremely difficult to get sufficient halyard tension to keep the luff straight, again a bad outcome in strong winds, especially if trying to get upwind.

A wire or dyneema stay with a rigging screw to tension it, or a Highfielld lever with adequate mechanical advantage to do so is a far better method.

Jim
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Old 17-08-2017, 18:44   #9
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhyachts View Post
Unless you are installing the stay to reinforce the mast your sail maker can incorporate the stay in the sail. Clip it on a reinforced deck pad-eye and raise it with the stay-sail halyard. When done, lower it and store away.

If the stay-sail is large and attached significantly above the spreaders you might consider a running back.
This can be, & is done, but typically only for staysails which aren't designed or needed for making ground to weather. As without a well tensioned stay, plus a halyard, headsails just don't point well.
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Old 17-08-2017, 18:55   #10
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Thanks to everyone but my issue is

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

My real issue is HOW do I attach the inner stay at the top ?

Do I have to get a rigger to go up the mast and maybe rivet or otherwise attach a pad eye at the top of the mast for the inner stay ?

The deck attachment is not a problem.

Thanks,

arch
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Old 17-08-2017, 21:29   #11
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

Wichard baby stay attachment.... Number 9150 if memory is correct.

Just cut a slot in the mast, drill the corresponding holes, bolt the two pieces of the tang together and rivet in place (we tapped the tang for machine screws and bolted instead). It's a lot of time in a bosuns chair, but we installed it just fine.

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Old 17-08-2017, 22:16   #12
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

There are all kinds of standard rigging attachments, most of the known as "noses" or "beaks", as well as tangs. Most of which are quite a pain in the rear to intall while up the mast. And there are also Cheeky Tangs, by Colligo Marine. Drill the spar for 1 bolt, & done. You can hang both the stay, & the halyard from them. Using synthetic rigging (Dyneema) of course.
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Old 17-08-2017, 22:22   #13
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

Just my $0.02 worth.

The PO, of my boat, installed a "reinforced" eye in the foredeck to facilitate a cutter rig (even went to trouble of adding running backstays to offset). The problem was, the deck had insufficient structural to take the strain. In a big blow, he managed to (almost) rip a large chunk out of the deck.

The stress on the deck needs to be assessed and sufficient structural member added to carry the increased load.
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Old 18-08-2017, 22:05   #14
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

I installed a detachable inner forestay on my Morgan 46. Running backstays are not great on a cruising boat so i made the upper attachment about one foot below the masthead. Just a single bolt through the mast secures the tangs. Sure this stay is not parallel to the forestay so it doesn't look as cool, but functionally I doubt it makes any real difference. There was no bulkhead in the foredeck in the place where I needed to terminate the lower end, so I had an arch of stainless steel made to go under the deck and it attaches through the hull with four bolts on both sides. The arch includes an eye that extends through the deck to provide attachment point for the lever tensioner. Had to get a couple new sails, storm jib and Yankee, made and we got the clews in the right place that way.
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Old 18-08-2017, 23:39   #15
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Re: advice Install inner forestay

The true Solent stay comes from near the top of the mast in a masthead rig to a point above the forward anchor locker bulkhead.
There is no need for running stays in this arrangement, the backstay takes the mast load.
In practice, the stay is generally 12" or so below the forestay.
It is not parallel to the forestay, but if it is detachable that's no big deal.
If it isn't detachable, tacking the jib is a major PITA.
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