A Good Surveyor Does Not Guarantee a Good Survey

[gjordan]

Sailpower, You may well have been an honest broker, but far too many yacht sales people are on the same level as used car salesmen. The first one I used proved that to me, and a few after that until I felt that I would not trust any recommendation from a broker. That does not mean that there are no good brokers, just that you should always be careful. Over the last 15 years I have done numerous real estate transactions, and have come to the same conclusion about real estate agents. There are a few very good ones, a larger number of bad ones and many mediocre ones. The last ten years, I have interviewed agents before I started any transaction. It is amazing to me that more than a few have been so offended when they found out I was interviewing 4 or 5 agents, that they didnt want to handle my property. They just wanted the listing, because they knew they would get half of the commission, even if they did nothing after the listing. I doubt yacht sales people are any different. Are surveyors fundamentaly any different? Not from my experience. If I sound jaded, it is because I have been burned a few times by the so called professionals. _____Grant.

[Teknav]

Hello Grant! Being an EE, I like to use degreed professionals in my personal business as well. In an earlier thread, I recommended the use of EE, ME and Structural Engineers to do a thorough surveying. When each engineer gives me his/her final report, I know exactly what they found and tested and what recommendations to follow; professional engineers speak a common language. That is why I am biased in hiring engineers. Engineering departments, at most universities, would welcome the opportunity to survey ANY engineering structure. A boat or an aircraft combines several engineering disciplines to obtain the final product. Do you really think a surveyor can do a thorough job of several professional engineers?; not a chance in.... Boats and aircraft are very pricey engineering feats. If you want a professional opinion about their condition/performance, you'll have to pay for it.

Mauritz
Knowledge Is Power!

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

I used to sell charter boats for the big company and they heavily discourage people from chartering before buying...

Well Goooollyy!

Whoda thunk.

My experience is not that great either.

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Well Goooollyy!

Whoda thunk.

My experience is not that great either.

That being said, I sent one of my best clients to Grenada for a 5 day sail, and he bought the boat from me. I consider him a great friend now, and will be sailing with him this summer.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Crimea Cruiser

If you read most surveys, the whole survey is jammed pack with error and omission legalese. They guarantee nothing, basically. just that they inspected boat and perhaps it was still floating.

Yep.

..........

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

All true but that just adds another variable; that being many dont know how honest their broker is. All brokers have the inherent conflict of interest in how they earn their money regardless of honesty.

I would never compound the potential of hiring an incompetent surveyor with the dubious advice of a broker.

Yep, hear that a lot.

You have an Alden 50 in RI? I know more than a few competent professional sail yacht brokers up that way. Buying a quality product like you have I guess you might have used one along the way?

We all know there are turkeys in this business same as in most sales industries. Interesting that you label the broker’s advice “dubious” presumably because he is on commission? I’m guessing that in your world your compensation is also ultimately determined by your performance maybe just not as directly? To me and a lot of others enlightened self interest was doing good work as that is what sustains you over time.

Anyway my advice was to interview not just accept. Feel free to ignore same. Hey, sometimes your neighbor or the guy on the next bar stool does know what he is talking about.

I will say that in today’s world with everything being on the internet it is much easier to get information and there seems to be more than some who feel that going direct to the listing broker might save them a few bucks and so in pursuit of that are willing to put up with a less than optimum broker if he has the listing. Reserving the right to later blame the broker of course!

In the old days information wasn’t that easy to come by and so a professional broker who knew the market was a valuable resource and could count on repeat business. That’s still true today I guess but just a harder sell.

Cheers!

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

That being said, I sent one of my best clients to Grenada for a 5 day sail, and he bought the boat from me. I consider him a great friend now, and will be sailing with him this summer.

After finishing this thread and getting to this point, if I get the chance to look for the boat I want I will "interview" you.

Would love a 5 day "inspection".

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

All true but that just adds another variable; that being many dont know how honest their broker is. All brokers have the inherent conflict of interest in how they earn their money regardless of honesty.

I would never compound the potential of hiring an incompetent surveyor with the dubious advice of a broker.

Yep, hear that a lot.

You have an Alden 50 in RI? I know more than a few competent professional sail yacht brokers up that way. Buying a quality product like you have I guess you might have used one along the way?

We all know there are turkeys in this business same as in most sales industries. Interesting that you label the broker’s advice “dubious” presumably because he is on commission? I’m guessing that in your world your compensation is also ultimately determined by your performance maybe just not as directly? To me and a lot of others enlightened self interest was doing good work as that is what sustains you over time.

Anyway my advice was to interview not just accept. Feel free to ignore same. Hey, sometimes your neighbor or the guy on the next bar stool does know what he is talking about.

I will say that in today’s world with everything being on the internet it is much easier to get information and there seems to be more than some who feel that going direct to the listing broker might save them a few bucks and so are willing to put up with a less than optimum broker in pursuit of that if he has the listing.

In the old days information wasn’t that easy to come by and so a professional broker who knew the market was a valuable resource and could count on repeat business. That’s still true today I guess but just a harder sell.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by sailpower

Yep, hear that a lot.

You have an Alden 50 in RI? I know more than a few competent professional sail yacht brokers up that way. Buying a quality product like you have I guess you might have used one along the way?

We all know there are turkeys in this business same as in most sales industries. Interesting that you label the broker’s advice “dubious” presumably because he is on commission? I’m guessing that in your world your compensation is also ultimately determined by your performance maybe just not as directly? To me and a lot of others enlightened self interest was doing good work as that is what sustains you over time.

Anyway my advice was to interview not just accept. Feel free to ignore same. Hey, sometimes your neighbor or the guy on the next bar stool does know what he is talking about.

I will say that in today’s world with everything being on the internet it is much easier to get information and there seems to be more than some who feel that going direct to the listing broker might save them a few bucks and so are willing to put up with a less than optimum broker if he has the listing. Reserving the right to later blame the broker of course!

In the old days information wasn’t that easy to come by and so a professional broker who knew the market was a valuable resource and could count on repeat business. That’s still true today I guess but just a harder sell.

Cheers!

When (if) I am ready I want what I consider a "buyers" broker. Working for me only. What does a contract like that look like? How much is the typical fee?

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by Therapy

When (if) I am ready I want what I consider a "buyers" broker. Working for me only. What does a contract like that look like? How much is the typical fee?

The buyers broker splits the commission with the listing broker... So the seller/listing broker essentially pay for it

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Therapy

When (if) I am ready I want what I consider a "buyers" broker. Working for me only. What does a contract like that look like? How much is the typical fee?

Unlike in real estate there is no legal paperwork to designate a buyer’s broker.

The trick is, if you can, find a broker who you can trust and work with him. He will be paid out of the final commission so there is no cost to you. Some will say that the commission could have been cut with only one broker resulting in you paying less so therefore you may have overpaid because you had your own broker. While that may happen it is far more likely that the owner will demand a commission cut because there is only one broker and he gets the savings, not you.

One way to interview a broker is to call on a listing that you like. Don't tell him that you are shopping for a broker. You will soon be able to gauge how knowledgeable he is. While on the phone ask him about the market; are there better buys than his? Are there any other models you should consider? Is he willing to take you around for a day so that you and he can both figure out what might really be best for you?

If he doesn’t pass muster, move on.

Recommendations from fellow boat owners with recent purchases are a good way to get names to interview.

Keep in mind that if you are shopping for a 30K boat you will not necessarily get as much time as a 300k boat if the broker is busy. If that becomes the case, ask him for a recommendation.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

The buyers broker splits the commission with the listing broker... So the seller/listing broker essentially pay for it

I understand that.

What it means to me is that he is going to get half of what he could get if he sells you into a boat he has listed.

Money does talk and also makes people say things. Like, "I think this boat is better for you from what I understand, don't you think."

What I am trying to figure out is if there is a way to "buy allegiance", for lack of a better term.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

The buyers broker splits the commission with the listing broker... So the seller/listing broker essentially pay for it

This is the best thing we did... or buyers broker has been absolutely fantastic. He has so far gone way beyond what would be requested from him, including drop me and my wife off and picking up up at various locations, researching marinas and haul out areas, arranging best prices for items that need to get bought... etc... very very happy with them AND it hasn't cost us a dime.

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by Therapy

I understand that.

What it means to me is that he is going to get half of what he could get if he sells you into a boat he has listed.

Money does talk and also makes people say things. Like, "I think this boat is better for you from what I understand, don't you think."

What I am trying to figure out is if there is a way to "buy allegiance", for lack of a better term.

If you have to buy allegiance from a broker the guy is shady and you should run. That would actually be a good way to test a buyers broker... Ask if you can put he/she on retainer...

[gjordan]

Teknav, If knowledge is power, you should be well aware that almost no airplanes see an engineer after they have left the factory, unless they have some major defect that shows up, or they crash, and the feds get involved. The people that do the yearly annual or time dictated inspections dont need any sort of degree. They must have verifiable experience and pass some rigorous tests that the feds give them. It is experience that counts, not a piece of paper that shows you were a good student. Good surveyors have experience, but as boatpoker showed the verifiable certificates are much more dodgy than in aviation. Your previous suggestion of retired navel officers seems like a joke. Not to disrespect their service, but 20 years of giving orders, and probably not touching a wrench in the last 15 is not a model of yacht knowledge. I have two relatives that are E.E.s, and one is a near genius at solving radio communication problems for the State of California, but is somewhat dangerous with a wrench. The other has his degree, but never worked in the field. He is so bad with tools that his wife wont let him do any maintenance around the house. Engineers and boat surveyors are miles apart in the knowledge that is needed. I suppose this is just more fuel for the pissing match, but needed to be said._____Grant.