A Good Surveyor Does Not Guarantee a Good Survey

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by
Originally Posted by boatman61
Ahh well... you choose to live with oppression... this side we are more realistic... owners crash into other boats... without them boats are extremely well behaved.. so don't need surveys for just liability...
Don't complain coz your in the ****... you let it happen..

HappyMdRSailor;1267304

A more appropriate statement was never made.... We sue the crap out of each other 'cause we're entitled to do so....

Some things about the US just defy explanation....

[gjordan]

I ended up suing my insurance company for the damage their surveyor caused to my boat. My Peterson 44 was on the hard in Antigua, when my insurance co said it had to be surveyed. I was back in the states. They flew a surveyor up from the Virgins , and the fellow who looked after my boat while I was gone, let him on board. He did whatever he did to collect his fee and left. A couple of weeks later my caretaker went on board and found water up to about 6 inches above the floor boards. Needless to say, it ruined a lot of teak venier(sp?) . I had intentionally left the lowest seacock of the boat open, with the hose off, just in case there was water intrusion into the boat. This is the tropics during hurricane season when you can have torrential rains and any small deck leak can build up water in the bilge. I had protected myself by leaving the seacock open. The surveyor closed it, and didnt say anything to the caretaker, or tell me. Sure enough a deck scupper leaked and filled the boat causing almost $20000 in damage. I argued with the insurance co for a month or so, and they refused to take any responsibility. I hired a lawyer(first time in my life) and they payed off after the second letter from the lawyer. Plain and simple the insurance co was going to stiff me. I dont think that the surveyor ment to do harm, but he should have known that in the tropics , it is not unusual to have a drainage system in a boat that is on land. Yes! I should have hung a note on the seacock, but the caretaker was the only person that was expected to be on the boat, and he knew about the open valve, and opened it again after he discovered the water. The only claim I ever had on an insurance policy was caused by the insurance co. Who do you trust?______Grant.

[snort]

How about a thread with a positive mention for work well done by a surveyor and, if not, something along the lines of "I used so and so and now would like a recommendation for another surveyor in the area."
No negative review, but the point is clear that so and so likely under-performed.

[IdoraKeeper]

Originally Posted by zeehag

surveys are for insuring and bank loans. is what they are made for and what they do. a true assessment of your boat should be done with a person who knows about boats and what to look for as deal breakers.
there is no one who can tell you your future boat is a good or a bad deal for you--they will only tell for bank loaning money or for insurance company for future replacement of boat should you screw it up.

buyers have taken to using surveys incorrectly to see if there is something they missed--problem is that the surveyor missed more than many folks who know boats well would miss.

so--before you buy--find a derelict sailor or sailorette to sneak thru your future bilges for rot, funny colors, odors, strangenesses, and to look at chain plates and stuff the surveyor will miss. have em take pix of everything the eyeball cannot squeeze into the space to see...packing glands, under engine for leaks, everything..tell tale signs of problems that have been covered up for years..lol....
good luck.

btw--surveyor is not your friend--surveyor is looking for things to befoul the deal for insurer or bank.

Yes....exactly my experience. If you add in the politicing within a given yard and perhaps a special boat that multiple people would like to acquire cheaply......the deal becomes difficult. I was well aware of the deficiencies of the vessel I proposed to purchase and not the least deterred. There were no surprises, except good ones in owning her. It was not a matter of price but who would end up her master.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Teknav

Have you considered hiring a Marine Architect, from an Engineering University, as your surveyor? When I look at electrical circuits I verify that, are these the circuits that were designed and built by the boat's manufacturer? I would check and see any modifications to the circuitry; who did them and are they incorporated in the boat's schematics as revisions/modifications. I would also check and calculate the loads on these circuits; testing the entire circuitry under a full load. It might sound an over-kill inspection, but that is what an EE would do. Hiring a Marine Architect as a surveyor is worth the cost. No one wants any boat issues when sailing in the middle of the ocean. Boats under 10 years old, incorporate many safety features worth considering when shopping around. (A nurse midwife is very capable of delivering a baby, in most instances, without any help. But ONLY a Medical Doctor can sign the birth certificate!)

Mauritz

The reality is that in my business - and I don't know if this applies directly to the marine business - for every person that was required to build the software you need at least 1/3 of that person checking the software. Ratio of 3:1

I don't really expect that one person would be able to check all of the ships systems as detail as you pointed out but some stuff is so common on older vessels that certain assaying processes should be mandatory. By and large, having the right skilled person, using the right tools and technology, and using the right processes should give a good summation of he quality of the vessel.

Problem is.. I don't think the surveying industry is incentivized right.

[Cheechako]

Home inspectors + surveyors that can think outside of the "boilerplate" are hard to find for sure. You could get a better survey... it's a matter of how much you want to pay. Simply contract him on an hourly basis and pay him for two full days! People do expect too much of the inspection, OTOH, it should be done as properly as possible within the time constraints. Surveyors dont have much more knowledge than I do, but each time I use one, they seem to come up with one thing I hadnt thought of.....

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by boatman61

You may be happy gambling your life and home on someone else's 'knowledge'...
I'm not... that's also why I never 'Crew'...

A feeling of superiority is often telling.
Regardless, what I said is true; that the average boater doesn't know enough to thoroughly inspect a prospective purchase unilaterally.

Subjective, qualitative measures of one's own knowledge is almost always greater than reality.

Then, there may be one person in the world who knows everything

[Reiziger]

Originally Posted by gjordan

I ended up suing my insurance company for the damage their surveyor caused to my boat. My Peterson 44 was on the hard in Antigua, when my insurance co said it had to be surveyed. I was back in the states. They flew a surveyor up from the Virgins , and the fellow who looked after my boat while I was gone, let him on board. He did whatever he did to collect his fee and left. A couple of weeks later my caretaker went on board and found water up to about 6 inches above the floor boards. Needless to say, it ruined a lot of teak venier(sp?) . I had intentionally left the lowest seacock of the boat open, with the hose off, just in case there was water intrusion into the boat. This is the tropics during hurricane season when you can have torrential rains and any small deck leak can build up water in the bilge. I had protected myself by leaving the seacock open. The surveyor closed it, and didnt say anything to the caretaker, or tell me. Sure enough a deck scupper leaked and filled the boat causing almost $20000 in damage. I argued with the insurance co for a month or so, and they refused to take any responsibility. I hired a lawyer(first time in my life) and they payed off after the second letter from the lawyer. Plain and simple the insurance co was going to stiff me. I dont think that the surveyor ment to do harm, but he should have known that in the tropics , it is not unusual to have a drainage system in a boat that is on land. Yes! I should have hung a note on the seacock, but the caretaker was the only person that was expected to be on the boat, and he knew about the open valve, and opened it again after he discovered the water. The only claim I ever had on an insurance policy was caused by the insurance co. Who do you trust?______Grant.

Hey gjordan. This really is a drama, maybe protect yourself for the next time with a lockable valve.

Cees

[zboss]

I think the best advise given is basically give them a droplist of items that need to be complete...

1) check the stuff I don't have time or tools to check myself (bulkhead tabing, mast corrossion, speader mating, moisture, etc...)

2) then just what is necessary for insurance purposes

3) then simply validate the crap I find. Pumps not working, fridge not working, etc.

- z

[Al Lorman]

I recently had a similar experience buying a used boat. The reasonably highly recommended (by two people) surveyor missed patently obvious things, like a boom vang mast bracket that was almost completely worn away, what appeared to be a dent in the mast (and carbon fiber at that), etc. My experience got me thinking that we need the maritime equivalent of Yelp, where people can post comments on surveyors (positive and negative) so that we can check someone out before we hire them. It is bizarre that I can get 50 reviews before I spend $75 for a meal, but I can't easily check out someone who will charge me more than $600. Accreditation by SAMS is useless. I asked them if they had a complaint procedure and they did not respond.

Perhaps this site might be willing to host the Review a Marine Surveyor forum? I'd be happy to help set it up.

Al Lorman
F35 Ab Initio
Annapolis

[Teknav]

Hi Al! Don't expect much from "mom and pop surveyors". Retired merchant marines officers, coast guard and navy seamen are suited best to conduct marine surveys; they have the training and the background. As for the Practicing Engineers that I recommended in an early thread to do the surveying, when they sign a document and stamp it, it becomes a legal document to be honored worldwide.
I can see that some folks do not know much about engineering disciplines and what they teach, and as such do not think highly of them. When your boat is salvageable after a calamity, guess who the insurance company is going to hire to investigate; it will neither be your local mechanics at the marina nor a boat surveyor.

Mauritz
Ignorance is bliss!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

A feeling of superiority is often telling.
Regardless, what I said is true; that the average boater doesn't know enough to thoroughly inspect a prospective purchase unilaterally.

Subjective, qualitative measures of one's own knowledge is almost always greater than reality.

Then, there may be one person in the world who knows everything

No feeling of superiority here mate... but unlike you no Illusions about shysters...
A survey.. like a car safety inspection is only good for 24hrs...
If I had Illusions of superiority I'd join the shysters out there doing surveys... its easy enough to become one.. and its a lot easier than doing deliveries... and safer... money for old rope.
However... I don't think I'm so good as to put someone else at risk... so I just do my own.. though I will advise a friend now and then.. for free..
However... not all surveyors are shysters..
I know some excellent folk who specialise in timber boats.. that's all they do.. but plastic fantastics... that's another matter.
Guess I must be doing something right as no delivery of mine has sunk yet, and I've delivered a wreck or two.. neither have any of the 14 boats that I've owned...

[Teknav]

Hiya Boatman! Safe travels! +

Mauritz

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Teknav

Hiya Boatman! Safe travels! +

Mauritz

ROFL... not too safe mate... gets boring then...

[Dave0549jv]

I've had two surveys done by the same guy. The first one hit major problems about an hour and a half in, and we decided to abort. He let me off with a very reduced price, which I thought was very fair, considering he basically helped me dodge a bullet.The second survey, he bent over backwards to work with my ridiculous schedule, and did a really thorough job.

I'm glad I hired him. Neither my insurance nor my marina required it, but as I'm a first time buyer, it made me feel better. I never felt that he was working for anybody but me. That said, I feel like I could have done just as good a job myself and next time, I probably will.