A beginner, a build and rig questions

[TrentePieds]

Right-Oh, Ryan. We are getting closer to the mark :-)

To reiterate:

1) You do NOT want to become a boat builder. Once through will be enuff. For that purpose an OPTI will be as good as a Mirror or any other small dinghy. The Mirror is
stitch'n'glue, the OPTI is old fashioned construction reduced to the simplest possible. The stuff you posted from that Clearwater site is all you need to build an OPTI close enuff to "rules" to have it pass the Class Association measurer's inspection!

2) You want to learn to sail. As you say, that's a different thing altogether, and you'll learn it once you've built the dinghy. Basic sailing is really, really simple. Sailing WELL is a kettle of fish of a whole different colour :-)! By and by, when you get to it, The University of Edinburgh has an excellent sailing club, and there is a "non-academic" sailing club with a really good Juniors program at Port Edgar. But let's leave that till later :-)

In practice, there is no difference in utility between wooden and aluminium spars. Ally spars save you the "building" of wooden spars, and of course they are immune to twist and warp. I happen to live in an active agricultural area so "irrigation pipe" (aluminium tube of appropriate diameter) is easily available for dinghy spars. Wooden spars are "built", but for a small job like an OPTI they are really simple. Just glued together (laminated) from two pieces in order to ensure that they don't twist or warp. Ordinary "lumber yard" wood (pine or deal) will do if you select it carefully for straight grain. Do you still call a lumber yard a "timber merchant's"? Or have you come into the modern world ;-)? The sail is also really, really easy. Normally it would be made from "dacron" ("terrylene"), but in a pinch, and as a good way to learn, you can use cotton canvas. Canvas is really easy to sew on your mother's domestic sewing machine. If she'll let you :-). Dacron is slippery so it's not so easy, but you can do it. I made a mainsail for my first boat, a 26-footer, on an antique Singer treadle machine. We can talk about that when you get that far.

So as to be able to help you the most, we need to know what tools you have available, and whether you have an indoor space to build in. The building time for an OPTI is so short that you COULD do it outside in the summer - even in Edinburgh's weather. Some young people, back when I was your age, managed to build OPTIs in their mother's spare bedrooms! :-)

Again to augment what Boatman sez: The black job is a "jam cleat" or a "clam cleat". They have their uses in dinghies, but they are not, IMO, terribly reliable. The other job is a "horn cleat", and that's the only kinda cleat I trust. We can come back to why that is later.

So bring us up to speed on what tools you have to work with, please.

TP

[ryanshaw]

No, not aluminium spars, asking about aluminium vs wooden masts and booms.
Still, in the plans there is no lamination of the spars, and the guys in the videos I linked didn't seem to have a problem with bending the wood.

I'll be going down to the timber merchant soon enough to get a price, look for straight grain with few knots yes?

I have enough tools, as I've been doing woodworking from a young age, and looking through the plans I see that I've got everything I need except a table saw, a good plane and clamps, which I can borrow from a friend.

[boatman61]

On an Opti you'll have aluminium tubes for mast and boom.. lighter but just as strong.
These days a good timber merchant/DIY store can supply you with planed and cut to size timber/ply if you give them the specs.

[ryanshaw]

Will an aluminium mast be made from piping? They need plugs too, anyone know how to put screws into them? Self tappers or...?

[ryanshaw]

Found this online, which explains my cluttered head -

"But one doesn't pour his heart and soul, not to mention all his money, into the construction of a boat without carefully weighing every variation from the factory drawings."

One of my traits

[puffcard]

Love this tread. I built my first rowboat at 13, by 14 converted it to a sailboat and that was 50 years ago. Have own boats ever since. When I converted to sail, I used dagger boards and the sail was made from an old orange tarp. The mast was aluminum, but the boom was bamboo. Later got a used rig from a sea snark, all aluminum. I made a wood cart to carry and launch the boat, as I was just two blocks from the river.

With the aluminum mast you can use self tapping machine screw or rivets to mount hardware. You might be able to use plastic pipe caps for the ends

Ryan you may be getting too big for an opti. By 17, I was sailing a Force 5. Like a lazer, but bigger sail. By 20 started sailing and racing cat's, have own over 8. First was a British built Thye, very similar to a Shark. I actually put it on the top of a Peugeot 404 and drove it over a 100 miles at night. I don't recommend that.

Later bought a Hobie 33 for racing and then went to cruising boats. My point is, I started where you are. I wanted to build my boats, but quickly learn there are production boats which are much faster to sail, more fun to take guests on. Girls like fast boats.

Love that you're starting young.

[TrentePieds]

@ #47 and sequel:

Don't worry - we'll unclutter you :-)! Here goes:

Quote: "No, not aluminium spars, asking about aluminium vs wooden masts and booms."

Masts and booms and other "sticks" that are used to set the sails from are collectively called "spars" :-) Don't worry about it. We understand what you mean and you'll pick up the "sailor-speak" from us.

There is a difference twixt tubing and piping. Tubing is a much thinner wall thickness than pipe and therefore much lighter weight. Traditionally tubing is made from non-ferrous metal and pipe is made from ferrous metal. Pipe is specified by the INTERNAL diameter, and tubing is specified by the EXTERNAL Diameter I have used 2 1/2" ally tubing for a 20-foot "jolly boat". The boom was 2" ally tubing. The jargon is "tubing" for tubing and "pipe" for pipe. "Piping" means a complete system of pipes contrived and installed for some particular purpose.

Keep in mind that you don't want to "goldplate" your first effort. Contrary to that other bit you read :-) You'll have outgrown and OPTI in a coupla years and be passing it on to some other neophyte sailor. If you hang around here long enuff, you'll be moving into a REAL little ship, and THAT is when you'll be needing to spend money. If that happens soon enuff, you can keep the OPTI as a tender for the real boat :-)! In consequence you needn't worry about such fine points as the problems of using dissimilar metals in the rigging. Sure there will be electrolysis if you use dissimilar metals, but it will be so slow in a "dry sailor" (kept on land twixt outings) that you'll never see it.

For fastening such things as pad eyes and "bails" (Little stainless steel strops to hold things like blocks, it is prolly best in an OPTI with ally spars :-) just to use 1/8" "pop-rivets". If the walls of the spars are thick enuff to take three "threads (or more) of a coarse threaded machine screw you can use them. I don't remember the metric screw specifications off hand, cos here in Canada we use the American system for the most part. In that system the screws I would use are specified, e.g. as "#10 x 1" NC", in contra-distinction to "#10 x 1" NF" where the NC means "coarse" and NF means "fine" thread. #10 is the diameter (by gauge), and 1" is the length. You should not use fine thread in thin ally. The screws will strip out. Your iron monger will have a conversion table SAE (the American system) to metric, or you can find it on HolyMotherNet.

The plans you have do not mention "laths" or laminating because they are antiquities. There is a technique for constructing hulls called "strip plank". It consists of laths (or strips) of small section such as 1 1/2" x 2" from which the entire hull is laid up by laminating one strip to the other. Modern canoes are built that way of strips that are as small in section as 3/8" x 1", and we have a revered member on this forum who crosses oceans in a 47-footer (I think it is) that is built that way. Way, way, superior to old-fashioned wooden construction. In fact, my old OPTI bit the dust a coupla years ago, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't knock up an OPTI that way :-) Doing it requires a good table saw (cabinet makers saw) which I have, and a machine called a shaper or a "sticker" which I would have to get. In this method of construction one edge of a strip is "hollow" and the other is "round" so the strips can be twisted slightly in relation to each other and still give a tight glue joint.

Again because the drawings you have are antiquities, they don't show "built" spars. But the dimensions are small, and if I were doing the job, I would get straight grain, knot-free 1" x 3" "moulding". In this country it comes S-F-H which means that the wood could be either spruce, fir or hemlock. It doesn't matter for this purpose which it is. 1x3 is the NOMINAL dimension, and because the moulding is supplied S4S (sanded four sides) the actual dimension is 7/8" x 2 1/2". If you laminate 3 lengths on "the flats" you will have an "engineered spar" that is 3 x 7/8" = 21/8" or 2 5/8" x 2 1/2", i.e very nearly square in section and tremendously stable and strong. When you get that far, we can talk about it again.

Moulding, which is what you would use also for the longitudinal members of the hull such as the chines comes in 14 foot lengths. To save money, have you timber merchant cut 9 feet off the 14' lengths so he can sell the 5' length to others. No timber merchant will cut stock so he is left with less than 4 feet, because such shorts become waste. Nobody wants them!

For the "strongback" (the temporary frame that holds the boat while you build it) you can use any old lumber, so don't waste money on "good" stuff.

By the way, moulding also come in something called MDF which stands for "medium density fibreboard". It is "artificial wood", plastic resin filled with wood dust. It is USELESS for boatbuilding, so don't let the timber merchant fob you off with that because it's cheaper. And DON'T try to save a few bob by using it. It would be money up the flue :-)!

TP

[Lepke]

I've build many boats in different materials in my life. Both solo and as a part of a crew. If building is to save cost, you'll actually spend more than buying one. My advice is if money is part of the reasoning, find a used one similar to what you want. You can be using it this weekend.
Even a small boat can take weeks to build. They all require some special tools and skills.

[ryanshaw]

Next round of questions

Looking online for Opti spar sets, the cheapest I found was this -
https://www.pinbax.com/index.asp?Det...ssc=&ordering=
Is this even good value? Or will it be cheaper to make them out of ally tubing? Maybe with the official Opti fittings bought as spare parts?

Looking for the sail I found this -
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ventoz-Op....c100677.m4598
Again, is this good value? I notice there are sails like this with a sleeve and others that require ties - any preferences or differences? Otherwise, many here have mentioned making my own sail - this is a cheaper option I guess? Suppose I could use the domestic sewing machines in school if so.

By guessing the price of wood I might have to leave the fitting out of the boat until later this year, depends how much support I can get from my parents If so, I will be able to make the wooden hull but not get the spars, sail, lines, airbags etc.

I will make some construction videos when I begin, which will likely be this Spring or Summer if at all. To clarify my situation - I've been looking into all this and yet it's not completely confirmed yet. Until then, I will try to get to a timber merchant() this weekend or sometime next week and get my price... we will then see about confirmation

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by ryanshaw

Next round of questions

Looking online for Opti spar sets, the cheapest I found was this ...
xxxx
xxxx

Here is a really good online supplier:

Parts & Sails for Optimist

Great prices, quality and reviews. They ship at cost.

$90 usd for opti sail, plus shipping.

[valhalla360]

I'm still a bit confused.

What is the goal?
- Go sailing?
- Build a boat?

Either is perfectly fine goal but the answer changes the guidance.

Also, what is the overall budget, you are looking at?

[ryanshaw]

To be honest, I don't know what to expect to pay, I have no set budget, definitely under 1k all in, in two parts - building and fitting.

[TrentePieds]

1K what? I assume you are talking quid? That would equate to Can$1,750 or US$1,390 at today's exchange rates.

We've established that your objective is to have the experience of building a boat as much as it is to learn to sail one, although you foresee using this particular boat you are building for going fishing, I assume on the lochs near Edinburgh.

For a seventeen hundred Canuckibux I could CERTAINLY do what you are proposing to do, but there are two things for you to bear in mind, budget-wise: 1) ALL things that are sold with the word "marine" attached to them are expensive. Sometimes the cost is justifiable due to the conditions in which the gear will serve; sometimes it has no justification other than that the suppliers do what I call "selling into a market of ignorance". 2) There are differences in "sticker price" twixt one country and another due to that same effect of "marketing", so prices quoted here in Canada (or more broadly in North America) may now translate directly to UK prices. Just something for you to be aware of.

Now, if I were in your shoes, but resident here, I'd mosey around to the largest warehouse or factory and pick up a few discarded shipping pallets. They are free for the taking - in fact, the are often left out by the road for people to take for fire wood - and two or three would give you all the lumber you need for the strongback. Rough lumber, yes, but for the money you save, you could buy a few tools that will enable you to build a better boat, and that will stand you in good stead for other jobs in the future. How about a good "cordless" (battery powered) drill motor? Worth it's weight if not in gold, then certainly in fittings for the boat.

Computers lay a long, long way in the future when I was your age. These days I expect your school is littered with them, and that they teach you spredasheets in fifth form. You would do yourself a favour by doing what naval architects and boat builders do: Commit the parts list from your plans to a speadsheet. Then "source" all the various bits and pieces with their local price put by them. The total is a reliable guide to how much money the "client" (in this case, you) has to come up with.

Along with all the "hard" stuff, your budget has to include money for stuff like glue and paint. If I were in your shoes, I'd begin now to think about where to get that. For glue epoxy is the only way to go these days, but the stuff is expensive. There are two major suppliers: "System 3" and "West System" (or is it "System West"?). It's all much of a muchness. Just like you wouldn't use aliphalic glue any more, or even resorcinol, you wouldn't use enamel paint any more. You'd use a resin. Fir plywood simply cannot be satisfactorily finished using only paint because of its grain structure, so we work around that by laying a very light "scrim" of glass fibre cloth over it, setting that scrim in polyester resin ("lay-up resin") and then, when that very thin lay-up has cured, you lay a coat of "gel-coat" on top to get the glossy finish. There are tricks to that trade as to any other, so we can talk about that later also. But those tricks are worth learning, so for now, "source" these materials also, and include them in your spreadsheet. What we call "fibreglass", the Americans call "fiberglass" and down Solent way, where they speak funny :-), they call it "GRP" for "Glass Reinforced Plastic".

I meant to warn you in my last post talking about "moulding" that these days, because of the scarcity of good wood and the expense of it, a fourteen foot length of moulding is not likely to consist of one single piece of wood. It's more likely to be "fingerjointed" together out of several short pieces, because moulding in shoreside use is not used for structural applications. Therefore it doesn't matter that the "fingerjoints" are weak. In boat building where EVERYTHING has to be bent to a curve, it DOES matter. But you'll be working with small dimensions like 1x2 and 1x3 and not a lot of it, at that, so you might like to buy 1x10 planks ["boards" to you, I think :-)] and rip smaller pieces ["laths"] of the edge of the plank on your friend's table saw. You'll need to set it up with a "ripper" blade to do that. If you select nice 10 foot lengths of 2x10s and "resaw" them, you WILL have nice straight, CONTINUOUS grain, and as a bonus, those smaller pieces will, in effect, be "rift-cut". Which is always nice :-)

Don't know quite what happened, but you are getting quite a little boat-building seminar :-0)!

If you do a really, really nice job of the hull and show your meddle that way, maybe you can convince your Dad that HIS money spent on a boughten rig, would be money well spent :-)?

TP

[ryanshaw]

Ok time for an update:

I nipped round to the dump and a few yards round about and picked out stuff that may or may not be able to be used for the strongback - kinda got trigger happy to be honest

I found the local timber merchants and whipped up a spreadsheet (attached). Three of them I will visit on Monday after school and the other three on Tuesday or Wednesday hopefully to get their prices.

Everything is going well at this stage; can't wait to get stuck in, but first I will have to dress up my rowing boat and do some paintwork to sell it.

[TrentePieds]

Good job, Ryan :-)! Systematic, detailed, documented planning for the job to be done is always the way to go, regardless of what the job is.

Keep going at it. We're here to help :-)

TP