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Old 07-08-2020, 10:23   #31
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

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Originally Posted by Tupaia View Post
That is hardly reason to make a choice. I know of several places around the world to get hauled out so long as your draft is less than 4 feet. The OP is planning a trade wind circumnavigation where there are numerous places to haul cats and mono's. Plus all of the commercial yards, you may not like the prices but in an emergency then the insurance will likely be paying.


On the other hand you could argue redundancy. Completely destroying a propeller on a cat means you can still cruise, you can even dry out an a beach and fix it. same thing on a mono and you are looking for a tow to that same very expensive commercial yard. Sure there are narrow travel lifts that will haul a mono cheaply but once you are in the know there are equally numerous haul-outs for cats.

So hardly a deal breaker either way.
You've seemed to have confused MY thoughts with anyone else. I was doing what anyone other than the OP was doing in giving my thoughts based upon my perspective with the belief that anything else is valued at less than that of the equivalent amount of salt measured by weight.
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Old 07-08-2020, 15:22   #32
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

KTZ, I wonít get into the cat versus mono discussion but would like to express my thoughts regarding materials.

IMO I would stay away from aluminum, and go either fiberglass or steel. If resale is a big concern then go FG because youíll have a larger pool of buyers.

Since youíre looking to circumnavigate then youíll find yourself in many remote locations. Steel and FG can be commonly repaired in such areas. Steel even more so than FG. But AL will be more difficult and expensive.

I owned a 65í steely and as a full time live aboard the maintenance was no sweat at all. I also owned a small AL and honestly I hated the powdery oxidation and ugly looks. Forget about painting AL.

Also you might consider reducing your purchase budget down to $750k and keeping the rest for preparations and unknowns.
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Old 07-08-2020, 16:42   #33
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

Dear original poster. May I suggest you hop a ride on a few monohulls with more displacement than your previous vessel. Also, I very much admire Chris White.
Ok, we came from the same town. But seriously, nice boats.
Iíll pass on commenting on the number false statements about aluminum. Commercial fishermen and oil field vessels ...guess they are just fools. But...
I have a TIG welder onboard. Please read up on the advantages of twin keels.
While this thread might go on forever, you have an important decision to make.
In closing, my beloved prohibits me from welding below the waterline. I have a good friend whoís opinion on yacht builders: ď If itís not Dutch, itís not much. ď ...Just a joke already !
No perfect boat. No perfect design. No perfect builder. No perfect material.
Read a lot of Professional Boatbuilder and hop on as many different boats as you can. Truly different boats. Try the Boat Design web as well. Good luck.
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Old 08-08-2020, 06:20   #34
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

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No perfect boat. No perfect design. No perfect builder. No perfect material.

This is very true. It's really a game of "which boat has the least number of things that annoy me?"
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Old 10-08-2020, 09:39   #35
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

As far as maintenance (and probably safety) goes, I donít think that you can beat a PROPERLY designed and built ALL aluminum vessel. Properly done they are as close to zero maintenance as you can get as far as the structure goes (hull, deck, superstructure, bulkheads etc ). All equipment welded on, not bolted where ever possible etc. I met a guy in Panama that was starting on his third circumnavigation with an all aluminum boat in this size range and when I mentioned the ď penny in the bilge water ď scenario, he Laughed and said ď what bilge water? Mine are always dry! Basically no salt water intrusion! Everything welded, shaft seal on shaft. Dry. Another experience that I had was talking to the Captain of a commercial dive boat. As the boat pulled in to the dock, I noticed numerous dents between the frames from many decades of commercial use. When I asked him about maintenance, he basically said the same thing. Pretty much none. And as the afore mentioned cruising sailboat, it was also bare aluminum. No paint needed.
My only personal experience with aluminum was when I was Captain of a 70í Morelli and Marvin power cat, twin 960+ hp cats, for about 2 years, ( yeah, fun job) that I ran for a tour company. It too was all welded aluminum and no paint, and other than standard wash downs no structural maintenance, and yes near dry bilges.

For me this is all moot as I could never afford either one! From a simplicity point of view, as you can see, I like aluminum.
Also, the Dashews have shown what all aluminum sail and power ocean cruisers can do. But wow.......... that St Francis is a nice cat too! (All be it a good bit more maintenance with 2 engines, frp structure etc.
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Old 10-08-2020, 10:00   #36
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

Dolphin, you're probably right. The issue I ran into is that the shipyards who quoted my new build were double in aluminum versus in steel (hull cost), which is a significant amount of money that could never be recouped from not needing paint, less maintenance.

So in the end, like everything else in life, it's all about money and if you have enough of it for whatever purpose.

BTW, my 65ft steel had 100% dry bilges also. The packing glands dripped into catchments running into the shower sump. Not exactly rocket science, but I'm surprised by so many Taiwan trawlers I've seen lately with wet bilges. No excuse for that.
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Old 10-08-2020, 10:17   #37
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

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...
... Or a used aluminum monohull like Nordia 65' which is listed right now, with an Amel-like dodger and steering position but with higher specs.
Check out Ed Joy's Good Hope 56 and 65 designs. They are aluminum mono hulls with swing keels.
A few of the Good Hope 56's have been built in South Africa and one has been built at K&M in the Netherlands. One is/was for sale in Granada. Not sure if the Good Hope 65 was built, but it might have been in South Africa.

Later,
Dan
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Old 10-08-2020, 10:25   #38
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

I would use the cat for tropical waters and running passages (e.g. rtw via Panama, Torres, etc.)


I would use the Nordia for cold waters, high latitude, etc.


If you plan a mixed route but want to visit Alaska, Patagonia, etc. I would go for the Nordia.


I helped deliver a Nordia 65 up our coats about 10 years ago. Very nice boat but the one we sailed had a vastly underpowered engine ... ;-( (or else the prop was not matched too well).



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Old 10-08-2020, 10:42   #39
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

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Originally Posted by Ktz View Post
Hello everyone!

I have been an owner of both multihulls up to 45ft and monohulls up to 54ft doing mainly coastal cruising.

Now, I am about to buy a bluewater boat and start a round-the-world trip with my girlfriend and friends occasionally. I probably will do a trade wind circumnavigation, but of course I prefer not having limitations regarding the cruising grounds and courses.

My budget for the boat can be around 1M$. I am studying all types of boats for many years, I have quite a lot of sailing experience but still, I am not sure which is the best for the trip.

In that budget, I could buy a new St. Francis 50 which IMO is one of the most well-designed and balanced liveaboard cats. Or a used aluminum monohull like Nordia 65' which is listed right now, with an Amel-like dodger and steering position but with higher specs.

I generally consider the St Francis 50 a safer and more rational choice for many reasons but the idea of a big monohull of this quality is also appealing, although maintenance, handling and resale will be probably harder.
I know they are totally different but I think you might have equal level of comfort and safety in these two.
What's your opinion?



https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...&Ntt=nordia+65
I've had the good fortune to sail substantial distances on monohulls up to 100', with much of that experience in the 60'-80' range. My last big trip was on an Oyster 61, 20K miles from the UK to NZ via Russia. I currently own a Chris White Atlantic 57 which we've only sailed 8K miles so far because of well, you know.....But we did get around Newfoundland last summer and down to Grenada before the pandemic struck.

It's actually difficult to explain just how different that 65' Nordia is from a St. Francis 50 - there is simply no equivalence at all. They are utterly different to sail, anchor, live on, maintain, dock, etc., etc. Only you can decide which set of conditions you prefer, though perhaps hearing many opinions on this thread can help clarify your own feelings.

I have two questions - what maintenance budget are you considering? That Nordia will run you double the St. Francis. The size of the boat you can afford is set way more by the maintenance budget than the purchase price......

And the most important question (assuming you have a realistic maintenance budget available) - with a $1M purchase budget, why constrain yourself to these two choices?? In that price range there are many choices of both mono and multi, which in my opinion, are better than either of those two. Heck, you can buy one of my sisterships for that price.....

My $0.02
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Old 10-08-2020, 11:10   #40
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

Captain Mako. In post 32 you advised the original poster to stay away from aluminum. Difficult and expensive to repair in remote locations ...impossible to paint...limited pool of buyers.
Please consider the history of commercial vessels. Take Alaska. Not really that remote, but aluminum seems very popular. The oil field. Once 60’ was about as large as you would see in aluminum. Now 160’ . Not just the US Coast Guard, but patrol and research vessels from a wide range of countries. I could go on and on.
In post 36, I think you inadvertently posted something closer to the truth. Aluminum costs twice as much initially. True. Further I will attest that steel is the only material suitable for some jobs. In fact, two commercial vessels were built in Core 10 steel to assess the cost / benefits. Last I heard, they were still working.
So why are so many, so foolish as to build and sell in a material which cost twice as much and is inferior to steel in your opinion. For sailors, is it a subconscious association with beer cans ? Maybe argon induced hallucinations? Resale. Ask any aluminum yacht builder in Europe for a discount. LOL. A 60’ new build is $2 mil plus with a waiting list. I’ve seen old commercial aluminum lifeboats sell for more than scrap prices. Sorry, but not the same case for old steel boats.
Paint. Aluminum and steel get pretty hot in the sun. When we were building, I slathered the bottom with epoxy after careful prep. Not one square inch of problems. I’m trying to eliminate antifouling. The deck was hot so I painted it and the top half of the hull with white enamel thinking it would be easy to remove for a proper paint job. It’s still holding on and I see no reason to change to some expensive and toxic and difficult to repair, yacht finish.
I’m happy you enjoy your steel vessel. My wife’s opinion is simple. I’m the only thing she finds objectionable in an aluminum vessel.
Happy trails to you.
Mark, a painted white manatee.
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Old 10-08-2020, 12:13   #41
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

A circumnavigation is your plan as far as I can understand but a little confused with the comments on the live-aboard comfort considerations.

Before even thinking on the exact builder and model, the order of considerations should start from safety, handling in different conditions and areas and overall reliability/redundancy and serviceability in remote areas - there are pros and cons with both options. Imho, a mono would generally be the better choice.

The longer you stay in marinas/mooring along the way - especially in warmer areas (e.g. Caribbeans) a cat would be the better choice.

Accessibility: Draft is indeed an important consideration but in many areas and marinas the beam and maneuverability in narrow channels and areas is the limiting factor.

You may get a better feed from the circumnavigation focused forums and discussions - if this is indeed your main plan. My own experience is between the Med/Europe, transatlantic, Caribbeans and the US east coast where almost all the more active blue water cruisers are on monos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktz View Post
Hello everyone!

I have been an owner of both multihulls up to 45ft and monohulls up to 54ft doing mainly coastal cruising.

Now, I am about to buy a bluewater boat and start a round-the-world trip with my girlfriend and friends occasionally. I probably will do a trade wind circumnavigation, but of course I prefer not having limitations regarding the cruising grounds and courses.

My budget for the boat can be around 1M$. I am studying all types of boats for many years, I have quite a lot of sailing experience but still, I am not sure which is the best for the trip.

In that budget, I could buy a new St. Francis 50 which IMO is one of the most well-designed and balanced liveaboard cats. Or a used aluminum monohull like Nordia 65' which is listed right now, with an Amel-like dodger and steering position but with higher specs.

I generally consider the St Francis 50 a safer and more rational choice for many reasons but the idea of a big monohull of this quality is also appealing, although maintenance, handling and resale will be probably harder.
I know they are totally different but I think you might have equal level of comfort and safety in these two.
What's your opinion?



https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...&Ntt=nordia+65
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Old 10-08-2020, 15:02   #42
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

Scrolling through the posts youíll find a comprehensive discussion of the various pluses & minuses so Iíll just add two considerations as we faced the same choice a year ago: 1. In catamarans, choose a performance cat for the sailing fun & speed: daggerboards, moderate weight, no generator , carbon stuff like the rig, etc. 2. In that category consider the Outremer line: designed for world travel, functionally elegant, good brand support from Grand Large Yachting, active international owners group. In your price range, the 49ís or 51ís are available.

We chose a 2011 49 & are living aboard in New Zealand until the world reopens....absolutely no regrets. We are part of a large group of cruisers here for the winter & the catamaran owners seem generally more happy with extended living aboard.
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Old 10-08-2020, 15:11   #43
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I would use the cat for tropical waters and running passages (e.g. rtw via Panama, Torres, etc.)


I would use the Nordia for cold waters, high latitude, etc.


If you plan a mixed route but want to visit Alaska, Patagonia, etc. I would go for the Nordia.


I helped deliver a Nordia 65 up our coats about 10 years ago. Very nice boat but the one we sailed had a vastly underpowered engine ... ;-( (or else the prop was not matched too well).



barnakiel
Wow, you have been on the boat!
As I see, they all have 225hp perkins. I think its ok for the displacement. Can you recall anything else from trip?
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Old 10-08-2020, 15:51   #44
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

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Originally Posted by Capdave360 View Post
I've had the good fortune to sail substantial distances on monohulls up to 100', with much of that experience in the 60'-80' range. My last big trip was on an Oyster 61, 20K miles from the UK to NZ via Russia. I currently own a Chris White Atlantic 57 which we've only sailed 8K miles so far because of well, you know.....But we did get around Newfoundland last summer and down to Grenada before the pandemic struck.

It's actually difficult to explain just how different that 65' Nordia is from a St. Francis 50 - there is simply no equivalence at all. They are utterly different to sail, anchor, live on, maintain, dock, etc., etc. Only you can decide which set of conditions you prefer, though perhaps hearing many opinions on this thread can help clarify your own feelings.

I have two questions - what maintenance budget are you considering? That Nordia will run you double the St. Francis. The size of the boat you can afford is set way more by the maintenance budget than the purchase price......

And the most important question (assuming you have a realistic maintenance budget available) - with a $1M purchase budget, why constrain yourself to these two choices?? In that price range there are many choices of both mono and multi, which in my opinion, are better than either of those two. Heck, you can buy one of my sisterships for that price.....

My $0.02
Dear Capdave, thank you for your comment!
I know that there are plenty of choices in this budget and that these two boats are totally different. I have ended up to them because they are both available right now and they have some qualities I like. Great built quality, protected steering position, nice and comfortable cockpit & interior, seems they have good motion comfort, not super fast but fast enough.
I really like the concept of your boat! I have heard and read great things. I have never been aboard. Not sure about the galley down and general interior finishing. Also, as I understand the stern is not visible from either steering positions. I just check that there is a listing of one in Grenada.
How do you compare the cruising lifestyle of this cat with the big monos you had?
BTW UK to NZ via Russia is mindblowing..
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Old 10-08-2020, 17:36   #45
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Re: 65ft aluminum mono vs 50ft cat

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Originally Posted by Ktz View Post
Dear Capdave, thank you for your comment!
I know that there are plenty of choices in this budget and that these two boats are totally different. I have ended up to them because they are both available right now and they have some qualities I like. Great built quality, protected steering position, nice and comfortable cockpit & interior, seems they have good motion comfort, not super fast but fast enough.
I really like the concept of your boat! I have heard and read great things. I have never been aboard. Not sure about the galley down and general interior finishing. Also, as I understand the stern is not visible from either steering positions. I just check that there is a listing of one in Grenada.
How do you compare the cruising lifestyle of this cat with the big monos you had?
BTW UK to NZ via Russia is mindblowing..
Ktz - one difference that may not be obvious is scale. Wind and waves have a certain scale to them (why old navy movies shot in a swimming pool with models don't look right), and on a milk run circumnavigation most of those winds and waves will be under 12 ft and 30 knots the vast majority of the time. For cats, 50ft. is a decent breakpoint on scale, but you're going to really feel the top end of that range. The 65' mono is an entire scale step above that - it's going to shrug off those conditions that would feel tough in the cat at that high end. The next step up for cats is around 60'. The next step up for monos is around 75'. These aren't black & white numbers - depends on displacement, hull and rig, etc., etc., etc.

With the right deck gear and being smart about sea room I think a couple can sail almost any size boat - the trick is to let the boat do the work. Otherwise you just hurt yourself. Aside from budget, the limit is really how much boat you want to keep clean and nice before you need crew to do it. For me, I reach my janitorial tolerance right about where I am - 57' cat. Mono is a bit bigger, but more than 65' gets endless. You might think - oh I'll get day labor to help me in harbor, but it's way harder than it sounds; and your insurance company will puke all over it.

Over to specific boats; yes they really are all a compromise. I looked pretty carefully at the more performance oriented cats when choosing mine - basically Outremer & Catana on the production side, and Switch & Atlantics on the semi-custom side. Also looked at a variety of one-offs, but too risky from various perspectives. There are a bunch of new contestants entering the production performance cat market, but too soon to tell which will survive.

Obviously I could accept the compromises in the Atlantic 57. We doubted the galley down, and it does sometimes get old passing everything up and down - but we love having both a bigger galley and a bigger salon than is possible with galley up - and it's nice not to live in the kitchen all the time. Absolutely love the pilothouse - I'm way too old to stand outside and take it. We dress for the weather, and step out when we need to, but don't have to stay out! Love the safety of the forward cockpit - nearly zero exposure, sailing the boat from a rib high pit a long way from the edge.

On interior finishing, Atlantics are semi-custom boats, every one is different. I've been aboard five of them, and seen extensive photos of two more, all quite different. It's a thin market - you either like the ones for sale or you don't. There might be another one for sale next week, or in two years.....Chris usually has a feel for that.

On visibility you can see both sterns from the inside steering station. You can see directly astern well from outside, and get a pretty decent idea where the corners are. The original owner of my boat spent three years in the Med with stern-moors, and never bothered to hook up the roving throttle/power steer unit he bought. Me neither. In practice the easiest way to put the boat on the dock alongside is get the bow close, pass a line, and then use the twins to walk it in, so visibility aft is a complete non-issue.

Cerulean for sale in Grenada is about 1,000 meters from me right now, on the hard. Professional captain sailed her around the world, and is now running her replacement, an Atlantic 72. It's a beautifully built boat that has been very well cared for. When we were looking, the price was a lot higher. At the current price we might, maybe, have bought her instead.

Comparing cats and monos?? I don't always love the higher frequency/lower magnitude cat motion, but it's way safer - the risk of getting thrown across the cabin and breaking a rib is pretty much nil. I actually have come to really like not heeling or rolling, especially not rolling. The Atlantic 57 will sail rings around the Oyster 61 on any point of sail in any weather, and is a waaaaaaay more comfortable platform to live on in general. We love the walking around room, and the on-deck feel of the salon, and the lack of a companionway ladder. Going up and down that ladder on a mono gets very old. I used to run an 87' ketch, and my boat has more elbow room than that boat did! Though she was a couple steps up on scale and would completely shrug off conditions that make us slow down. For live-aboard cruising I'm not at all interested in going back to a mono in this general size range.

And I should say, it's really pretty exciting sailing a boat that in the right conditions will go into the teens and stay there. We have seen sustained bursts into the 20's. Fast is Fun!!!

Sorry if that's all a bit random, but it's what came to mind.

Hope this helps.
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