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Old 09-11-2021, 20:06   #61
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

Yeah I agree. It's not "the government" to the rescue, it is men and women in a branch of the military.
And once a rescue is engaged they will not take kindly to people wanting to stay in danger. If the boat is disabled and the seas are dangerous to everyone involved, I am sure we can all appreciate why they want everyone off the boat and out of danger. The one rescue I was involved in, the captain was definitely not going to entertain any alternative proposals.
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Old 09-11-2021, 20:12   #62
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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Oh get real, Auklet. The Coast Guard's rescue equipment is not overpriced or un-needed. It is hard to imagine a lesser equiped or lesser trained team who could rescue people at sea. It's possible to imagine that these folks didn't all need to be taken off their boat, but others certainly need it. The Coasties have the right equipment and taining to do it, regardless of the need. I am glad we have them. Thank you USCG.

But we see right through your sarcasm. You think that it's "government to the rescue" that is theproblem. You'd rather see people stand on their own two feet, keep government out of it. That we are sheep being"sold" on the usefullness of government.

I disagree. It is not the govrnment, it's us. From my perspective we (sailors) may have become soft. It is too easy to get on a boat when you are unprepared, and when it gets tough, you can't stick it out. You want off. It is because we are priviliged; we don't have to sitck it out. Pampered you might say.

But it is not the government's fault. They are not "sellng" us on dependancy. That's on us, not them.
I was not referring to the USCG’s equipment; rather, what the vendors hawk, the testimonials, fancy ads, and wild stories that serve to get boaters to buy one of everything to stay “safe.” A person buys a new boat “to him,”, first question what da, da, da, da equipment he needs to get to stay safe and be rescued, etc. If someone is pulling me off a boat, yes—I’d wish for a helicopter. God bless the Coast Guard!!

Yes. It’s us; our expectations that have been cultivated: e.g., mask up or die!
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Old 09-11-2021, 20:41   #63
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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Yeah I agree. It's not "the government" to the rescue, it is men and women in a branch of the military.
And once a rescue is engaged they will not take kindly to people wanting to stay in danger. If the boat is disabled and the seas are dangerous to everyone involved, I am sure we can all appreciate why they want everyone off the boat and out of danger. The one rescue I was involved in, the captain was definitely not going to entertain any alternative proposals.
Not that I take much issue with your comment but I can’t see how someone can say that a service organization in the US Department of Homeland Security is not “the government.” What is it? Not charity, not private sector, not personal ownership. It’s gotta be something. Animal, vegetable, or mineral, etc. Tax-payer supported?
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Old 09-11-2021, 20:47   #64
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

Some background for perspective. This 79 foot business keeps coming up, but the records indicate the boat is 57. But, for the sake of discussion, assume 79.
First, a boat that big is a handful, even for an experienced, trained crew. You can't just yell back and forth in a boat that big.
Second, if it really was 79 feet, that puts it in special class even amongst boats over 65 feet.
I forget what the issues are, but the regulations change at 79.
It appears that at the least the paperwork was not up to snuff, and after that things go down hill. Then there is the "run aground" business, with enough damage to require haul out and ten days fixing? None of this seems well organized.
I get calls on a regular basis from people who want to crew on some boat or other. I don't tell them what to do, but I do tell them what questions to ask. They generally figure things out for themselves. I call that learning.

Now, for the Coast Guard. They have good equipment and they train hard, but lack experience because of lack of emergencies. Tom McAdams used to go out on up to 800 calls a year back in the 60's and 70's. Such workloads, no longer exist with their attendant learning curve.

In any event, rescues that have to be done under hellatious conditions put everybody, boats, crews, helos/crews in real danger. The CG is on standby, just like firemen. Fact is a lot of the time they have nothing better to do but come rescue someone.
So, don't get into conditions where you need them so badly that you have run out of options and have to be rescued. Fact is there was no excuse for that boat to be out there, period. That wind field was in the forecast.

A lot of times, captains and crews wait until things have gotten out of hand, when they could have made arrangements before they got out of hand. Twice in the past 5 years I have gotten towed in and the CG kids and I agreed that we could have gotten in by ourselves, but under the circumstances it was a lot safer to take a tow, in daylight and before the oncoming storm hit. And, they weren't busy doing something else. They appreciated the consideration.

In both cases we had major mechanical troubles which hampered our getting into harbor safely.

Bottom line. We got in safely, they got to practice what they train for and and there was very little risk to boats or crews.

I had a guy call me at 10 PM one night in the winter(with a storm coming), he was near Bandon Oregon river entrance and was planning to go in there. The tide would have been ebbing, and I told him to go on to Coos Bay(20 miles), call the CG and ask for an escort. He would get there during the flood tide and to call me when he was safely tied, regardless of the hour.

About 3 AM he called, they had no trouble and the risk for them and the CG was low.
If he had tried to cross the bar at Bandon, I think he would have gotten in to trouble. That would have resulted in CG boat and helo crews being called out in the middle of the night with all the possibilities of injuries or deaths.

If you have to make decisions like these, make them "in cold blood". Forget about egos, face, what other people "might" think of you and do whatever needs doing to lower your risks and that of anyone who might have to come to your aid.
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Old 10-11-2021, 04:22   #65
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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Agree. I used to anchor on 200’ deep wrecks and dive them. Although just using 90’ chain and 300’ nylon. On a 32’ boat. I will say the windlass does notice when the vessel heaves up on swells.
Rope rode is vitually weightless. To do that you would have to go up to the bow and fasten it at 30m of chain... good luck with that!

42m of 10mm chaing weighs 100kg. 80m 200kg more or less, plus the 25KG anchor = 225kg. Thats more or less what a 4cyl diesel engine weighs.

I challenge you to drop your engine in 60m of water and pull it (with a rope so no weight is added) using the windlass and bow rollers installed on production boats.

Pls post the video to YouTu#d so we can see the breakers blow and smoke come out of the housing
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Old 10-11-2021, 06:53   #66
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

I pulled 100 meters of 10mm chain and a 30 kg Mantus up off portugal using only the production winch - had a more powerful bow roller though.
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Old 10-11-2021, 07:49   #67
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6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coast. 1

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Part of my Masters ticket class (Transport Canada) was swimming 100' and climbing into a life raft ... while wearing a survival suit in a calm swimming pool. Never again. You can't believe how hard that is if you haven't done it. I would never want to try it in rough water.

I agree ... Step Up !


Might be easier to have some waves heaving u up aboard[emoji848]

But point well taken. Doing multi-thousand foot penetration swimming cave dives with drysuit and ice dives with dry gloves and double thermal underwear doesnt make it easy leaving the water sometimes. Especially with no ladder.
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Old 10-11-2021, 16:44   #68
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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Part of my Masters ticket class (Transport Canada) was swimming 100' and climbing into a life raft ... while wearing a survival suit in a calm swimming pool. Never again. You can't believe how hard that is if you haven't done it. I would never want to try it in rough water.

I agree ... Step Up !
You'll probably have plenty of adrenalin to help you though when it's the real thing!
It's certainly true though. As a river guide there were a couple times I went for a swim in white water with rain gear on and, yeah, everyone should practice with it just for fun sometime.
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Old 11-11-2021, 08:48   #69
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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Part of my Masters ticket class (Transport Canada) was swimming 100' and climbing into a life raft ... while wearing a survival suit in a calm swimming pool. Never again. You can't believe how hard that is if you haven't done it. I would never want to try it in rough water.

I agree ... Step Up !
All CG aircrew have to do that once a year in open ocean, so I'm very familiar with that. Another thing we have to do is practice escape from a giant drum that gets dropped in the water and turns upside down. Guess which is significantly more difficult?

The options when a boat is near sinking are getting into a raft or escaping from inside a sinking boat once it sinks. No matter how hard the former is, the latter is far more difficult. I would submit that if one hasn't experienced getting out of an enclosed space underwater, than it's really irrelevant how hard one thought it was to get into a raft with survival gear on.
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Old 11-11-2021, 09:03   #70
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

Apples and cumquats !
Who proposed getting into a raft in an enclosed space ?
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Old 11-11-2021, 09:43   #71
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pirate Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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You'll probably have plenty of adrenalin to help you though when it's the real thing!
It's certainly true though. As a river guide there were a couple times I went for a swim in white water with rain gear on and, yeah, everyone should practice with it just for fun sometime.
The hard bit is righting it, and keeping it righted.. only need to do it once in the pool but with wind and waves not so easy for real.. then you gotta climb in.
I remember reading about a late delivery across the Biscay years back where things went bad and the skipper decided to abandon ship.
He sent one of the crew forward to ready the liferaft which somehow inflated on the foredeck and then blew over the side.. can't remember if that's when he went over the side or he got swept over by a wave but now there was just the skipper + 1 onboard.
They and the boat survived, the MOB sadly was never recovered.
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Old 11-11-2021, 11:12   #72
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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Apples and cumquats !
Who proposed getting into a raft in an enclosed space ?
Exactly, who is talking about that but you?

Did you purposely miss my point or are you just jumping into a conversation midway and couldn't be bothered to read the preceding posts? A wee bit embarrassing I know. Just for you I'll repeat myself, sorry for everyone else who is actually participating in the conversation. When your boat is taking on water uncontrollably it has a high likelihood of sinking. When it sinks its very unlikely that it will fill to the gunnels and then gently slip under the waves allowing you to elegantly step up into your liferaft. Far more likely you'll be in the boat when it sinks, and it's insanely hard to get out of an enclosed space underwater. So if your boat is taking on water uncontrollably, its much safer to abandon ship into a liferaft (outside the boat, I incorrectly assumed that went without saying), no matter how hard that is, well before the boat is close to sinking, than to play amateur naval engineer and predict exactly when your boat is going to sink and step off second before. And then still have to get into your liferaft.

If there's anything in your experience that suggests otherwise, I'm sure we'd all be most interested in hearing it. I personally have picked quite a few people up who made it into liferafts. I have also been involved in quite a few searches for boats that went down with their crew inside and they were never found. I've never rescued someone who got out of a sinking ship when it was sinking, nor have I been on a case where we found the still afloat boat and the crew died, although I realize that does happen occasionally. I've repeatedly gotten into a liferaft in the ocean with my survival gear on....it's hard. I have also repeatedly practiced getting out of a submerged space.....it's far harder. Again, if your experiences have been different I would certainly love to discuss.

I will do the TLDR again just for you...if your boat isn't sinking or on fire you're probably best staying with the boat. If it is sinking, you're far better off getting into a liferaft well before it sinks, as hard as that is, as opposed to having to get out of the boat at the time it slips under the waves.
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Old 11-11-2021, 11:28   #73
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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Exactly, who is talking about that but you?

Did you purposely miss my point or are you just jumping into a conversation midway and couldn't be bothered to read the preceding posts? A wee bit embarrassing I know. Just for you I'll repeat myself, sorry for everyone else who is actually participating in the conversation. When your boat is taking on water uncontrollably it has a high likelihood of sinking. When it sinks its very unlikely that it will fill to the gunnels and then gently slip under the waves allowing you to elegantly step up into your liferaft. Far more likely you'll be in the boat when it sinks, and it's insanely hard to get out of an enclosed space underwater. So if your boat is taking on water uncontrollably, its much safer to abandon ship into a liferaft (outside the boat, I incorrectly assumed that went without saying), no matter how hard that is, well before the boat is close to sinking, than to play amateur naval engineer and predict exactly when your boat is going to sink and step off second before. And then still have to get into your liferaft.

If there's anything in your experience that suggests otherwise, I'm sure we'd all be most interested in hearing it. I personally have picked quite a few people up who made it into liferafts. I have also been involved in quite a few searches for boats that went down with their crew inside and they were never found. I've never rescued someone who got out of a sinking ship when it was sinking, nor have I been on a case where we found the still afloat boat and the crew died, although I realize that does happen occasionally. I've repeatedly gotten into a liferaft in the ocean with my survival gear on....it's hard. I have also repeatedly practiced getting out of a submerged space.....it's far harder. Again, if your experiences have been different I would certainly love to discuss.

I will do the TLDR again just for you...if your boat isn't sinking or on fire you're probably best staying with the boat. If it is sinking, you're far better off getting into a liferaft well before it sinks, as hard as that is, as opposed to having to get out of the boat at the time it slips under the waves.
You are dreaming. I suggest you re-read my post to which you refer ... very, very s-l-o-w-l-y.

You are the one who raidsed the issue of some idiot getting into a liferaft in an enclosed space !
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Old 11-11-2021, 11:48   #74
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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You are dreaming. I suggest you re-read my post to which you refer ... very, very s-l-o-w-l-y.

You are the one who raidsed the issue of some idiot getting into a liferaft in an enclosed space !
I'm sorry you're feeling the need to double down on this absurd assertion that I somehow advocated or even referred to getting into a lifereaft in an enclosed space. Anyone who read my previous posts on this thread would realize that is patently absurd, the first time the idea even came up is when you broached it! What, exactly, are you seeking to accomplish here, or is this just trolling behavior?
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Old 11-11-2021, 12:08   #75
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Re: 6 people rescued in 60 knots of wind and 20 ft seas 100 miles off California coas

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I would submit that if one hasn't experienced getting out of an enclosed space underwater, than it's really irrelevant how hard one thought it was to get into a raft with survival gear on.
So this isn't your quote ?
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