51ft Sail Boat Lazy Jack and Stack Pack

[CassidyNZ]

I have slab reefing with a stacpac and Harken Batcars. I have delivered boats and sailed those of friends with Sheldon in-mast furling. Personally I prefer mine and wouldn’t switch but that’s not to say the furlers are no good.

But an observation, having not seen comment on it so far in this thread, is that not only would the mainsail need to be changed from vertical to horizontal battens which would necessitate a major recut or a new sail, the slot in the mast where the fuller is removed would need to be remedied to provide a base for a track, be it Batcars or anything else.

I would think that for a vessel the size of yours, this would probably mean a new mainsail and a new mast. I personally would not want to do any long term cruising with a patched panel covering the furler slot. I’m pretty confident that remedying the problems you’re having with the in-mast furler would be a better, certainly more cost effective solution.

[Ericson38]

New mast and sail for 50 foot boat is $50K plus.

[Mlp48]

That's the plan I've seen work again and again: 2/3s up place block and then mark the boom off in approx. 5ths or mimic the layout on CaptMikeM's drawing.

[IAmGroot]

I had a 50 ft Jeanneau with in-mast furling and I will NEVER get a furling main again. The sail had no shape whatsoever and I could never quite get trimmed to make me happy. I never had a situation where the furling did not work, but it was always concern. I have considered boom-furling, as that at least allows for battens in some systems. Reading around on these forums, I have concluded that they have their own issues, and until/unless I become incapable of reefing/dousing the sail without a ton of work, I will stick with slab reefing. And...lazy jacks.

Hoisting is a different story - and an electric halyard winch is a must-have for me. Job done.

For the OP: I recently looked at sailrite for a lazy jack and stack pack kit for a boom for a Lagoon 450 rather than paying the $3K+ that Lagoon charges and came up empty as well. But looking at $30-50K for a new mast and/or boom and sail for roller furling vs making up some lazy jacks for $300-500? Sounds like a no-brainer question to me. I will just take some pictures of similar boats and do some measurements and math and figure it out.

[CassidyNZ]

I’d be very circumspect about in boom furling as an option - my mind goes back to the Platino event where the weight of the boom was credited with being the primary reason for things going belly-up. But then again, maybe the furling tackle doesn’t add much weight? Don’t know.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

I’d be very circumspect about in boom furling as an option - my mind goes back to the Platino event where the weight of the boom was credited with being the primary reason for things going belly-up. But then again, maybe the furling tackle doesn’t add much weight? Don’t know.

It was the force of the wind in the sail while gybing that broke the traveller, the boom would have made very little difference. The reason they were unable to get the boom under control is that they were not able to access the foredeck because the dinghy was covering the hatch, though why they didn't hack through the sole of the RIB I don't know. The report said one of the primary reason things things went wrong is that they were using the autopilot in condition that required hand steering, which is what lead to the gybe. Though the fact that they ignored the warnings signs and were not keeping a proper watch did not help.

Honestly, the Captain was experienced, the crew was not - everything ultimately boiled down to her lack of oversight. I would not object to her being charged with man-slaughter.

https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/comme...eport-2016.pdf

[Pegasos]

I've just had new stack-pack/main-sail covers made. My sailmaker says that although these things all look the same superficially, there are a significant differences between them. In his opinion the ones made by Lagoon are the best design and anytime he makes one it is a copy of the Lagoon design, just scaled up or down as needed for the size. So I would advise that while you looking at what other boats have, be sure to also look at a Lagoon, even though it is a completely different boat.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Pegasos

I've just had new stack-pack/main-sail covers made. My sailmaker says that although these things all look the same superficially, there are a significant differences between them. In his opinion the ones made by Lagoon are the best design and anytime he makes one it is a copy of the Lagoon design, just scaled up or down as needed for the size. So I would advise that while you looking at what other boats have, be sure to also look at a Lagoon, even though it is a completely different boat.

You are right, they require some maths to balance them properly. I have a junk rig, so mine also function as topping lifts, and it is necessary that they are balanced towards the tack. I don't know if there are online resources for designing them on a normal boat, but if you may be able to work it out yourself with a little engineering knowledge.

All that said, I think your chances of success by simply scaling up a design from another ship are pretty high.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

The report said one of the primary reason things things went wrong is that they were using the autopilot in condition that required hand steering, which is what lead to the gybe.

That is wrong. The reason the boat crash gybed was because all the hydraulic fluid leaked out of the autopilot hydraulics and the autopilot was unable to hold a course, nothing to do with the conditions needing hand-steering.

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

Honestly, the Captain was experienced, the crew was not - everything ultimately boiled down to her lack of oversight. I would not object to her being charged with man-slaughter.

That is also wrong. All four crew members had extensive sailing experience including many miles of voyaging. That the skipper was negligent is accepted, the fact that she was inexperienced is just wrong.

Once the mainsail had been dropped, it was the out-of-control boom and the mainsheet tackle that killed the crewman, smashed everything in the cockpit and eventually brought the whole rig down. The weight of the boom, reported as over 600kgs was continually referred to in the report.

It was not my intention to hijack this thread with Platino information. I’ll not be responding to your post again. Please just go and read the report properly. I have - many times.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

That is wrong. The reason the boat crash gybed was because all the hydraulic fluid leaked out of the autopilot hydraulics and the autopilot was unable to hold a course, nothing to do with the conditions needing hand-steering.



That is also wrong. All four crew members had extensive sailing experience including many miles of voyaging. That the skipper was negligent is accepted, the fact that she was inexperienced is just wrong.

Once the mainsail had been dropped, it was the out-of-control boom and the mainsheet tackle that killed the crewman, smashed everything in the cockpit and eventually brought the whole rig down. The weight of the boom, reported as over 600kgs was continually referred to in the report.

It was not my intention to hijack this thread with Platino information. I’ll not be responding to your post again. Please just go and read the report properly. I have - many times.

Then the report is wrong. I am inclined to believe the report over you, sorry. Cherry-picking items to support your argument does not change that. It seems that for some reason or another you have strongly held bias' on this matter, or misunderstood the report. I don't think arguing the points with you is a valuable use of my time when the solution is that you read the entire report, rather than just the summary.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

Then the report is wrong. I am inclined to believe the report over you, sorry. Cherry-picking items to support your argument does not change that. It seems that for some reason or another you have strongly held bias' on this matter, or misunderstood the report. I don't think arguing the points with you is a valuable use of my time when the solution is that you read the entire report, rather than just the summary.

Sorry dude, Cassidy is correct. No doubt we’ve all read the report; I’m a bit surprised at your conclusions.

The moderate conditions and broad reaching course were not that bad and the auto pilot was doing fine, except that it was leaking hydraulic fluid and eventually lost pressure. That lead to the first gybe, which also was not controlled due to the inadequate preventer line set up. Subsequent over corrections by the failing autopilot led to more gybes, knocking a crewman overboard and eventually breaking the traveller and freeing the boom. The loose sheet/traveller cars flailing around led to the second fatality. Finally the boom crashing into the shrouds on both sides led to the rig collapse.

Access to the foredeck wasn’t the issue - it was lack of safe access to the helm in the after cockpit due to the loose sheet/traveller cars between the companionway/forward cockpit and the after cockpit.

Lack of leadership on the part of the skipper and her owner partner was partially to blame for the lack of safety training and poor response to the escalating emergency situation. At least three of the crew were more experienced than the two owners.

[Captn_Black]

They could have got the boom under control from the mast, but were unable to get there. The autopilot problem was a casual factor as they shouldn't have been relying on it in the conditions they were in - especially on a point of sail close to a run where even a slight broaching could have caused a gybe in those conditions, faulty autopilot of not.

Also, I'm not the one that tried to suggest that the boom bags were the issue and then attempted to ignore that in my following response

Edit - The MOB would not have died if they had got the boom under control sooner.

[Captn_Black]

I realise that my short replies here are a bit of a cop-out, but I accept that my conclusions different from the officially stated ones, and should be stated in more detail with citations. I just don't have time to do that. However, I think that the investigator shares my opinion, but did not feel that he was able to state so implicitly in his final conclusions, but I do think his opinion is clear of you read the entire report. I was thinking of making a YT video on this subject, and will go into more detail if/when I do.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

They could have got the boom under control from the mast, but were unable to get there. The autopilot problem was a casual factor as they shouldn't have been relying on it in the conditions they were in - especially on a point of sail close to a run where even a slight broaching could have caused a gybe in those conditions, faulty autopilot of not.

Also, I'm not the one that tried to suggest that the boom bags were the issue and then attempted to ignore that in my following response

Edit - The MOB would not have died if they had got the boom under control sooner.

How could they have controlled the boom from the mast?

The autopilot comment is nonsense. These are not non-electronic wind vanes that allow a boat to wander. Are the Vendee Globe sailors idiots for allowing their autopilots to drive them around the world on all points of sail? Besides, Platino was on a broad reach, a long way away from running by the lee and risking a gybe. Their pilot failed, period.

[fxykty]

Sorry, forgot to add a link to the Platino report discussion. We should move this off topic discussion there.

Preventer Rigging -- Lessons from the Platino Disaster
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...d.php?t=221425