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Old 03-11-2021, 10:20   #16
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

I always buy several cheap buckets before going on a trip; for when the bilge pump fails or gets blocked, or the head fails or gets blocked, and for rinsing underwear after such occasions.


Following is an extract from "Desperate Deliveries";




There was an annoying electronic alarm beeping loudly from the bilge pump "intelligent" mini-panel. There was a little water in the bilge, most likely coming from the propeller shaft seal. Jeubis and I investigated. The mini-panel was wired up completely wrongly. The port pump didn’t work at all on "Manual", and worked all the time on "Auto" regardless of the float switch position. The float switch sounded the alarm when it rose, which it did every time the boat rolled and the water sloshed back and forth.



I tied the float down to silence the alarm and left the pump running on "Auto". The water level did not go down. Jeubis told me there was a second pump somewhere under the starboard saloon floorboards. We couldn’t get the floorboards up to look at it as they were screwed and sealed down with marine sealant! We managed to break one free with a lot of physical effort since we had no hammer or crowbar, but the pump was not there. It was under the next one, which was not only sealed but also trapped under the vertical panels skirting it, and we couldn’t lift it or break it in spite of herculean efforts.


I stopped the port pump and took it apart; it was blocked with wood splinters and pieces of tie-wrap and short bits of wire dumped in the bilge by house carpenters and unqualified electricians. All of these thin scraps can pass through the filter screen of these Rule pumps and block the impeller. I put it back and now it started draining the bilge. I fished out handfuls of some of the plentiful garbage in the water, especially wood chips and shavings. However most of it was hidden under the stuck down floorboards, I could only get at what was near the pump...


...Later on Julian was sleeping while I steered and Jeubis came up and said the engine temperature had dropped to 100degF. Very good news, maybe the cooling system had been partially blocked and had now freed itself? I upped the revs to 1500 and the speed increased to about 4 knots. He said there was some water in the bilge and he was going to try and pump it out.


About half an hour later he hadn’t come back and I wondered what he was doing, had he gone back to bed? I left the wheel for a moment and looked in the companion-way. I saw him and Julian were working in there with buckets! The floorboard was up and I could see the bilge was full up to the level of the floorboards and sloshing over on the floor as the boat rolled. Jesus!



I told Julian to take the wheel. These guys had been trying to bail out the deluge with a bucket that they emptied into the sink without looking for the source of the incoming water, and without advising me! There must be a couple of tons of water in the bilge already.


I wanted to get a fast look at the engine and propeller shaft seal which could be the problem. If the bottom was holed, a likely prospect on an old steel hulled boat repaired in a Venezuelan yard, we were f***ed anyway - the pumps were not keeping up and it would have been impossible to see where the water was coming in from with the bilge already full, even if we could get the floorboards up!


To access the engine at the back of the saloon you had to remove the far too heavily built eight foot wooden ladder which led up to the cockpit and then pull out a box-like structure covering the front of the engine, a difficult and dangerous job for two strong people even in daytime when the boat was not rolling and the floor not all wet and slippery. However there was a light plywood panel above the box structure behind the ladder. I managed to get my fingers round the side of it and rip it open with the force of desperation enough to shine my headlamp in and see the engine behind. Immediately I saw a copious jet of water shooting out from the engine. I yelled -"Turn off the engine! "
Jeubis did so and the stream stopped. I was able to see that a cooling water hose had detached from the back end of the Bowman heat exchanger and allowed the cooling seawater to discharge directly into the boat instead of into the exhaust.


There were several tons of water sloshing back and forth in the rolling boat and we had to get it out ASAFP. I reached into the water and felt the pump and it was vibrating, so it was presumably running. There was no manual bilge pump on this boat. We also bailed with a bucket emptying it into the galley sink, but the sink filled quickly and drained very slowly, either it was blocked or had a deficient drain installation.



The water level was not falling so I removed and disassembled the port pump again and it was once more completely blocked with carpenters and electrician’s waste. I cleaned it and put it back. We tried again to prize up the floorboards over the starboard pump or break them but couldn’t. I lay down and inserted my arm through the narrow open part and down the side of the fuel tank and felt the pump, which was running. I managed to pull it out over the tank by yanking on the cable. We switched off all the breakers marked "bilge pump" but it still kept running! We switched off all the rest of the breakers and it STILL kept running!! There was an in-line plug in its wiring so I split it and it finally stopped. It was also blocked with waste; I took it apart, cleared it and put it back. The water was now noticeably dropping but it took a very long time to clear so much water. I had to clear both pumps several times more before we got it all out.


I saw that there was electrical wiring and junction boxes installed BELOW the floorboards, they had now been submerged in salt water. We had a potential electrical short circuit problem. I was knackered and wanted some sleep, but Julian was unable to carry on steering so I took the wheel while he slept.



"DESPERATE DELIVERIES" and "A SMALL SLIP"

True sailing adventures by Cris Robinson available as ebooks and paperbacks on Amazon Kindle.
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Old 03-11-2021, 10:45   #17
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

I have a small 12v strobe light connected in parallel with the pressure water pump so it is obvious (visually) when it is running - even when the engine is on and the pump can't be heard. If it is running for no obvious reason I can turn off the breaker and investigate.
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Old 03-11-2021, 11:12   #18
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

If you close the engine cooling water seacock and unclip the hose, you can use that, with the engine running of course, as an auxiliary pump
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Old 03-11-2021, 11:21   #19
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

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Originally Posted by sv_pelagia View Post
High capacity and WORKING MANUAL bilge pump 1st priority!

(Indeed, our boat has two high-capacity manual bilge pumps: one out in cockpit and the other down below in cabin. Both exercised (tested) regularly.)

Also have electric bilge pumps, but in an emergency, it would be the manual pump(s) that (hopefully) do the trick.
On a boat with only one or two people, my first choice would be high capacity electric pumps. We have four pumps. A 3700 gph, two 2000gph and a 500 gph. In addition we have a roving 2000gph. If you have a genuine hole in the boat and you have limited crew, do you really want half the crew working a manual pump? Finding the leak and stopping it would be my main priority. A 2" diameter hole 3' down on the hull will put 20 metric tonnes of water in your boat in one hour. What do you expect the manual pump to achieve?
Our main sump has a 2000gph pump. When this pump runs it also activates a sounder. We only panic if the sounder doesn't stop! Should we have a major leak we want to know asap not when the floorboards are floating.
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Old 03-11-2021, 11:48   #20
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

Well, the fire drill around a leak in your freshwater system is one thing, and soon resolved. The inadequate setup for emergency bilge pumps in your 41' sailboat is quite a different issue. Yes, one or more adequate manual bilge pumps is part of the right solution. The installation of a Groco safety seacock (or similar) which enables your auxiliary engine cooling system to function as a high capacity emergency bilge pump is likely another good idea. The first thing you need to do, though, is to redesign your system of electric bilge pumps. You need at least two automatic high capacity pumps in different areas of the bilge (four, two with two backups would be even better). These need to be equipped with warning lights and audible alarms so you know when they are running. A significant leak in a cruising boat is always a serious situation and a confused and uncertain panic after water reaches the floorboards or causes electrical problems is certainly not the desired result. Okay, you've received a wake-up call. Time to take preventative action.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:00   #21
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

Trash in the bilge is a fools error. Maybe i was brought up differently, but as a skinny kid, I can remember being it the bilge with the nozzle of a Steam Genny on a boat my -parents bought. A paint brush with white paint was next.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:03   #22
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

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Trash in the bilge is a fools error. Maybe i was brought differently, but as a skinny kid, I can remember being it the bilge with the nozzle of a Steam Genny on a boat my -parents bought. A paint brush with white paint was next.

Junk in hidden places in the bilge happens easily on many boats, however. On my own boat, I've made a point to rinse out the bilges from various places and let the pumps pull the water out. That re-locates any small, potentially pump clogging junk to the sump areas where I can clean it out. In my case, I have hollow fiberglass stringers with limber holes, so there are plenty of places stuff can get trapped out of sight.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:14   #23
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

2 days out on a 12 day passage from NJ to St. Martin. Motoring around 2am and the engine overheat alarm sounds. I idled the engine and woke the wife. I then heard the domestic water pump running and found the bilge mostly full of water. the bilge pump was emptying it out. There was slight green tint to the water in bilge and it was hot. coolant..

The water heater's heat exchanger failed and the domestic pressure was high enough to push water into the engine and pop open the valve on the coolant fill cap. It emptied all of our fresh water and engine coolant into the bilge 200 miles off shore with 1300 miles to go. Lucky for us, we have a water maker and were able to fill everything back up with water we made. If not for the watermaker, we would have had to divert back to the states.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:42   #24
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

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Unless you sail with a large crew all the time, a manual pump goes at the bottom of my priority list. I'd much rather have multiple large electric pumps (of known real-world capacity) that can run while the small crew is working on resolving the flooding issue than lose a person to pumping (and at some point, they're going to get tired).
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Originally Posted by Wandering1 View Post
On a boat with only one or two people, my first choice would be high capacity electric pumps. We have four pumps. A 3700 gph, two 2000gph and a 500 gph. In addition we have a roving 2000gph. If you have a genuine hole in the boat and you have limited crew, do you really want half the crew working a manual pump? Finding the leak and stopping it would be my main priority. A 2" diameter hole 3' down on the hull will put 20 metric tonnes of water in your boat in one hour. What do you expect the manual pump to achieve?
Certainly Cannot disagree with the two posts indicating they would depend first on high capacity electric pumps if short-handed. We have two electric bilge pumps, in addition to our two manual pumps.

But electrics can and do fail (unexpectedly, due to many possible reasons). The two working manual pumps are there is case the electric pumps fail.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:43   #25
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

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Originally Posted by zstine View Post
2 days out on a 12 day passage from NJ to St. Martin. Motoring around 2am and the engine overheat alarm sounds. I idled the engine and woke the wife. I then heard the domestic water pump running and found the bilge mostly full of water. the bilge pump was emptying it out. There was slight green tint to the water in bilge and it was hot. coolant..
Proof once more that s**t happens. The trick is learning that it is happening as soon as possible. Sounds like you have no bilge alarm and no audible signal when your bilge pump(s) are running. You might want to rethink that.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:55   #26
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

Yes to a strum box (a coarse filter to protect the pump from getting clogged up).
Yes to checking that your pump is not back flowing from the sea.

I'm surprised no one has suggested having a Y-valve on the engine coolant inlet so that you can use the coolant circulating pump as a bilge pump.

Also a large capacity engine driven pump is another good option rather than 12V.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:59   #27
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

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I'm surprised no one has suggested having a Y-valve on the engine coolant inlet so that you can use the coolant circulating pump as a bilge pump.

Also a large capacity engine driven pump is another good option rather than 12V.

A big belt driven pump on an engine is a good idea. However, using the raw water pump is not. On most engines, it just doesn't move all that much water (large diesels excluded). And the max flow will be at high RPM, which means you're either running it in neutral and revved up, or you have to motor at full speed while sorting out the flooding issue (which may not be desirable depending on the situation).

As an example, the gas big blocks in my boat are rated to move 30 gal/min (1800 gal/hr) through the raw water system. But that's at max RPM. At lower RPM it'll be significantly less. On the other hand, I could install a belt driven pump that would happily move 60+ gal/min (and with appropriate pulleys it would do that at lower engine speeds) and come out ahead.
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Old 03-11-2021, 13:22   #28
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

Good recount of your issue. You did well. I had a salt water version of the same and it was only a wallowing feel to the helm that made us look below. Water well over the boards and getting worst. We were two up, delivering a 41' alloy raciing yacht down the coast at the time. sails, down, engine on. One at the helm and manual pumping from there and the other down finding the source. Called a pan pan when the water was near the engine and batteries. A nearby trawler stood watch as a result. Eventually found the leak, being a foot long split in the hull, where a intenral pipe had chaffed through the covering and the dissimilar metals did the damage. Over the side with rags wrapped in plastic bags and a screwdriver and hammer and the leak was snuffed enough for the pumps to get on top. Motored to a marina were the called owner orgainsed an emergency haul out. Agree with others here that mention the priority of finding the leak. That was our hardest issue. Once found, plans can be made and enacted to solve it.
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Old 03-11-2021, 14:50   #29
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

Also ensure that the bilges are clean. Sinking because the pump is blocked by dirt would be hard to rectify with oneself.
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Old 03-11-2021, 17:01   #30
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Re: 50+gallons of water pouring into boat..are we going to sink?

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I'm surprised no one has suggested having a Y-valve on the engine coolant inlet so that you can use the coolant circulating pump as a bilge pump.
And I'm surprised that you didn't see my post 6 up from yours which suggested exactly that.
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