Trump Bans Sailing to Cuba

[gonesail]

not sure why anyone would want to exploit or invest in cuba. they are now rationing chickens. better to help the homeless and poor in your own country or neighborhood. the legacy of the murderous Castro brothers will live on there for a long time.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

We were in Cuba about 1 year ago and enjoyed the hospitality of some old friends who toured the island with us. For those of you who don’t understand the problems, and there seems to be quite a few here, the difference in economic status between Cubans is startling. There is actually a ‘ruling class’ who by any standard of comparison is quite rich while the majority are improverished much more than any other Caribbean island including Haiti and the DR. No middle class as we know it.

Money there belongs to the government, politically well-connected and the military. We felt guilty spending money there knowing it wasn’t helping the people or their economy and we would never go back because of the inequity there.

It’s blatantly ludicrous that people who claim to be progressives in this country criticize the motive for banning further exploitation of the people there.

Correct! All money spent in Cuba bolsters the military government and doesn't help the common Cuban. Until that changes, I agree with the US embargo.


It's very apparent when you visit Cuba to see the devastation to the general population.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

... while the majority [of Cubans] are improverished much more than any other Caribbean island including Haiti and the DR.

Disagree. I won't deny the poverty in Cuba, but allowing for the different political systems, I would put the lot of the average Cuban roughly on a par with the DR. Except that the DR isn't embargoed. Haiti is a basket-case; I would bet that the bottom-rung Haitian would happily change places with a bottom-rung Cuban.

It’s blatantly ludicrous that people who claim to be progressives in this country criticize the motive for banning further exploitation of the people there.

Cuba is poor mainly because they've been denied normal opportunities to trade regionally for 70 years. It's cruel and ridiculous to pretend that the embargo has done anything other than impoverish 3 generations of average Cubans. It's exquisitely, mind-blowingly hypocritical to maintain the Cuban embargo while enriching China and other authoritarian countries with trade.

We know who's really exploiting the Cuban people.

A US invasion would fix Cuba. An invasion of trade, tourists, scientists, cruisers, sports teams, investment. a MLB franchise in Havana.

Seriously, though... does anyone think that banning sailing to Cuba is likely to have any effect on anything other than the plans of maybe a thousand cruisers?

[Nelsons]

Originally Posted by Jules_M

I would really be interested in hearing the logic as to how Trump arrived at the conclusion it's a good idea to ban sailing to Cuba.

Trump, conclusion and/or logic? Funny joke.

[Mike OReilly]

It’s a bit rich to be criticizing Cuba based on income inequality when viewed from the American perspective. The USA has one of the highest Gini scores in the world. The “ruling class” in the USA is proportionally far wealthier than in Cuba.

I’m under no illusions as to the nature of the Cuban government. It is an authoritarian regime. But we in the West have no problem dealing with such regimes when it benefits us. And the main cause of poverty and suffering in Cuba of the people is the embargo.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Cuba is poor mainly because their government stole all the businesses from their people they've been which has denied normal opportunities to trade regionally for 70 years.

Fixed it for you!!!

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

If you had lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis wherein the entire world waited in fear for days for WW3 and the end of civilization you would not underestimate the capacity of this small country for mischief making.

Yes, that was a tense moment, but it was between Russia and the US. Cuba was a pawn in the conflict. My point was that Cuba doesn't really represent much of a threat to other nations. I can't see the Cuban armed forces doing much damage and it's not like they have the economic might to influence or compromise other countries. They do send a lot of doctors around the world though...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by OldMan

Fixed it for you!!!

Not much of a fix. You seem to forget what Cuba was like prior to the revolution. Basically, it was the place rich Americans went for an offshore dirty weekend. You do recall that the revolution was supported by the Cuban people, right?


In a nutshell, the revolution replaced one oppressive corrupt b4st4rd friendly to the US, with one who wasn't.

I appreciate that some wealthy Cubans lost their holdings and businesses. All I can say is that they probably backed the wrong horse.

Again, if you really want to improve the lot of the average Cuban, and are not just interested in a violent payback for a 60-year-old bloody nose, you'd support engagement and trade. And cruising.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It’s a bit rich to be criticizing Cuba based on income inequality when viewed from the American perspective. The USA has one of the highest Gini scores in the world. The “ruling class” in the USA is proportionally far wealthier than in Cuba.

I’m under no illusions as to the nature of the Cuban government. It is an authoritarian regime. But we in the West have no problem dealing with such regimes when it benefits us. And the main cause of poverty and suffering in Cuba of the people is the embargo.

I wonder why, with business investment and tourist travel from so many other countries like Canada and other wealthy EU nations why Cuba and the Cuban people are still impoverished after all these years?

WRT to GINI scores, yes it is high in America for various reasons. One primarily being that the US accepts the vast majority of impoverished immigrants and refugees from around the world each year. I am not blind to wage disparities, nor am I blind to the socio-economic mobility potential.

I do not condone the travel restrictions to Cuba. But the main cause of poverty and suffering in Cuba is the Cuban government.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

I wonder why, with business investment and tourist travel from so many other countries like Canada and other wealthy EU nations why Cuba and the Cuban people are still impoverished after all these years?

Do you really think that the US does not lean heavily on other countries to curtail or limit investment and engagement with Cuba? What do you think would happen if, say, a European company put an automobile plant on Cuba?

... the main cause of poverty and suffering in Cuba is the Cuban government.

The Cuban government has no levers to pull to ease the embargo; the only thing they could do that would appease the US and the Cuban US expat bloc is to commit mass suicide.The Cuban embargo is just a pander to get US votes. Cuba is miniscule as a threat to the US. The Cuban people are pawns in all this, no more. Supporters of the embargo don't give a rat's ass for the Cuban people.

The US reestablished diplomatic relations and trade with Vietnam in 1995, ffs.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It’s a bit rich to be criticizing Cuba based on income inequality when viewed from the American perspective ...

Cuba listed by neither the CIA nor the World Babk, so hard to compare.

The following list is an inverse ranking, wherein lower scores describe higher inequality.A value of 0 represents absolute equality, a value of 100 absolute inequality.
According to the CIA World Factbook, in 2012, Haiti ranked 4TH, with a Gini Index of 60.8. The Dominican Republic ranked 25TH (47.1), United States 39TH (45.0), New Zealand 88TH (36.2), the United Kingdom 116TH (32.4), Canada 117TH (32.1), Australia 134TH (30.3), out of 157 listed (Cuba was not listed).

Lowest score (most equal) was Jersey, ranked 157TH at 0.3.

➥ https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2172rank.html

World Bank GINI index ➥ https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/si.pov.gini

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Not much of a fix. You seem to forget what Cuba was like prior to the revolution. Basically, it was the place rich Americans went for an offshore dirty weekend. You do recall that the revolution was supported by the Cuban people, right?


In a nutshell, the revolution replaced one oppressive corrupt b4st4rd friendly to the US, with one who wasn't.

I appreciate that some wealthy Cubans lost their holdings and businesses. All I can say is that they probably backed the wrong horse.

Again, if you really want to improve the lot of the average Cuban, and are not just interested in a violent payback for a 60-year-old bloody nose, you'd support engagement and trade. And cruising.

If the Cubans back the current regime, there is no problem!!??

Businesses in Cuba that are of the nature to participate in International trade are owned by the military government, not the people. It’s simply an illusion that money made from international trade makes to the Cuban citizen.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Do you really think that the US does not lean heavily on other countries to curtail or limit investment and engagement with Cuba? What do you think would happen if, say, a European company put an automobile plant on Cuba?...

The Helms-Burton Act is the legal foundation of The United States' embargo on Cuba. The stated purpose of the Helms-Burton Act is:
"... to seek international sanctions against the Castro government leading to a democratically elected government in Cuba, and for other purposes ..."
The Helms-Burton Act is extra-territorial in nature. It aims to prevent individuals and companies from engaging in international trade with Cuba, by subjecting foreign nationals to travel restrictions and financial liabilities in the United States.
Title IV of the act provides for exclusion of entry into the U.S. by any foreign national (as well as their spouses and minor children) who has converted confiscated property for personal gain, or who traffics or has trafficked in confiscated property in Cuba. The activation of Title III creates significant legal exposure for international companies now operating in Cuba. Canada, the European Union, the United Kingdom and other significant U.S. trading partners have issued “statements of concern”, regarding the U.S. decision to implement Title III of the Helms-Burton Act.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Jules_M

I would really be interested in hearing the logic as to how Trump arrived at the conclusion it's a good idea to ban sailing to Cuba.

I believe it was a reaction to Cuba's support for the current government in Venezuela.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

The Cuban government has no levers to pull to ease the embargo

Simply not true. They could stop backing the current government in Venezuela.