Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-12-2022, 08:47   #31
Registered User

Join Date: May 2020
Location: Eleuthera/Lennox Head
Boat: Seawind 1260
Posts: 198
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
So, let's try to be clear on exactly what the problem is here, because I, for one, would like to understand.


Reliable sources state that the courtesy flag, for say, 45' vessel, should be 22" on the fly while the ensign should be 54" on the fly.


So, it would be expected that the courtesy flag is smaller than the ensign.


Is the problem that the courtesy flag is too small for the boat? Or that the ensign is too large? From the photo there appears to be about a 3:1 ratio in the size of the fly of the two flags, which does not appear to me to be a violation of tradition.



Is there a problem with the ensign being higher? The flags are not on the same halyard, and it is expected that the ensign will occupy the position of highest honor.



Or is it just the overall effect, given that the first spreader on this particular boat is quite low?




I am not an expert but am not aware of any law or tradition that states that the courtesy flag must always be flown from a higher elevation than the ensign. I would invite a source or citation if that is the case. On a gaff-rigged vessel the ensign would be flown from the gaff and would therefore be higher in elevation than any other flags.
These guys should know
Click image for larger version

Name:	95592444-0073-4EEF-ADEA-CB91E76260FA.jpeg
Views:	60
Size:	325.7 KB
ID:	269137
Alistair242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 10:14   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,734
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Flags are signals. Signals have order and meanings.


There is order in which the flags must be arranged in terms of nautical flag etiquette rules.

This order is universal across the globe. Follow the order to avoid confusing other ships. The flag with the highest honor should be flown at the highest order position.

The most critical flag signal is the vessel's national ensign. A vessel wears only its national ensign, and a vessel flies all other signal flags, including flying courtesy flags.

The Ensign of the nationality of the vessel takes the senior position on a vessel over the positions for other flags.

The order is as follows:

Gaff (reserved for the national ensign/ country flag)
Flagstaff at the stern
Bow staff
Starboard yardarm (Halyard)
Truck of mast (masthead)
Port yardarm (Halyard)

Flying the courtesy flag is a centuries-old tradition that is still relevant in these modern times. The act of flying a foreign nation's flag as your ship passes through or enters its waters is not only a sign of respect, it is an essential etiquette to observe. While there is no legal requirement to fly a courtesy flag, it is a polite custom to which you should adhere.

Courtesy Flag Flying Procedure

When to fly: Hoist your yellow ‘Q’ flag (Q = quarantine) when crossing from international into territorial waters. You fly this (and only this, not the courtesy flag) until you have pratique (official clearance in that country).

Where to fly: A flag halyard on the starboard side of the main mast, up to the lowest spreader, is the right position.

This placement is an honored position and the courtesy flag is raised to the lowest spreader, which is an architectural rigging design attribute, the placement height is not correlated to any discernment of priority of honor and respect. The height of the lowest spreader, if there is spreader is merely what the vessels rigging is. Do not make anything more of such height, it is just a "proper" placement. This placement may be higher or lower than the senior honored position of the vessels Ensign placement. By way of example, the Gaff height is typically higher than a lower spreader but a flagstaff at the stern will almost always be lower than the lower spreader. Height Does Not Matter. Position matters.

What to fly: Courtesy flag replaces the Q flag only after clearance is complete. A courtesy flag should be unencumbered (alone) on the halyard.

Additional courtesy flag etiquette includes:

In cases where a boat has more than one mast, it must be flown from the forward most mast.
If your boat is mastless, then the courtesy flag can replace any flag which is normally flown at the bow of the boat
If your boat has a mast with a spreader, the courtesy flag is flown at the lowest starboard spreader

Key points for courtesy flag etiquette

Never fly a flag that is tattered, dirty or in bad condition. This is considered rude and disrespectful.
Another, lesser known courtesy, is that you should also fly the national flag (or flags) of any guests on board whose citizenship or permanent residency is other than the nationality of the vessel. These are flown on the port side.
Some countries have their national flag as a courtesy flag, including France and the U.S.A. However some use a version of the national flag with a device (e.g. Italy), and some have a different flag altogether. These countries include the UK and other crown countries like Australia and New Zealand.

Size matters:

International Flag Etiquette: What Size?


Flag size and condition is important too. The flag needs to be large enough to be seen, but should never hang in the water or be in poor condition. The Royal Yachting Association gives the following advice on sizing:


Ensign

The general guideline for the size of Ensign used to be an inch per foot of yacht, but on many modern yachts this is found to be a little on the small side for the vessel to look “well dressed”. Roughly speaking a 3/4 yard Ensign should look right on a boat of 21-26 ft, 1 yard for 27- 34 ft, 1 1/4 yard for 35 – 42 ft, 1 1/2 yard for 43 – 50 ft and 1 3/4 yard for 51 – 60 ft, but some discretion may need to be applied.

Courtesy Flag

Having an undersized, faded or tatty courtesy flag in many places is worse than having no courtesy flag. Again as a guide only, 12″ in the fly should look appropriate for 21-26 ft, 15″ for 27- 34 ft, 18″ for 35 – 42 ft, 22″ for 43 – 50 ft and 30″ for 51 – 60 ft. Availability may however end up dictating the size of the flag.

Courtesy flags are also sized to the vessel. There is an old rule of thumb any flag, other than the vessel's national flag or ensign, such as club burgees, private signals etc, that they should be inch for every foot of overall vessel length.

That is to say, one flies courtesy flags that are typically one half the size of the ensign being worn.

Burgee

A burgee of 15″ in the fly (the horizontal measurement) should look appropriate on vessels up to 34ft. This increases to 18″ for up to 42ft, 24″ for up to 50ft and 30″ up to 60 ft.

As Paul Harvey used to say: So now you know.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 11:05   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,734
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

FYI:

Many foreign ensigns—courtesy flags—sold in stores are not manufactured to correct proportions. For instance, the flags of all former British Commonwealth countries, including Canada, Bermuda, the Bahamas, and the British Virgin Islands, are correctly proportioned 1:2, i.e., the fly is twice the length of the hoist. As a matter of interest, the United States flag is correctly proportioned 10:19 (nearly 1:2), not 3:5 as is commonly available.

Note the proper placement of Ensigns and courtesy flags may vary depending on whether the vessel is underway or at anchor.

Additional information of particular note to Americans but this guidance typically is similar to proper flying of regional [e.g., States or Provinces or Territory] flags of other countries.

Note in particular as to designated position where to wear the Ensign based on the type of vessel. And depending on rigging type the height of placement.

US State Maritime Flags

Uniquely -

Massachusetts and Maine are the only two states with their own maritime flags. These flags are not "ensigns" in the true sense of the word because they are not flags of national character, and are not used as such; instead, they are special versions of the state flag for use afloat. The state laws that create them do not use the term "ensign" to describe them, but use the term "flag". The Massachusetts law describes the flag as “The naval and maritime flag of the commonwealth,” Mass. Gen. Laws Ann. ch. 2, 3, while Maine's state law says: “The flag to be known as the merchant and marine flag of the State shall be of white, at the top of which in blue letters shall be the motto “Dirigo”; beneath the motto shall be the representation of a pine tree in green color” Me. Rev. Stat. tit. 1, 207. Although these flags are intended for use afloat, they are not ensigns and should not be called such.


https://www.sos.wa.gov/flag/boats.aspx

Use of the U.S. Ensign and Washington State Flag on Recreational Boats

Note: This section does not cover the use of yacht club burgees, owner's private signals, U.S. Power Squadron flags, U.S.C.G. Auxiliary flags, foreign flags, or social and courtesy flags. Rules for these are well established and may be found in existing literature. The U.S. Ensign with a canton of 50 stars (as the U.S. flag is called while in nautical use) and the U.S. Yacht Ensign, with a canton of 13 stars, are interchangeable on all types of recreational vessels while in national waters. Because the preferred location for the U.S. Power Squadron flag is also the starboard spreader, it may be flown beneath the Washington State flag.

The U.S. Ensign and the Washington State flag are normally flown from sunrise to sunset. However, at most yacht clubs "colors are made" at 0800. This timing is proper when in the company of other boats simultaneously making colors. The U.S. Ensign is raised / worn first and lowered last.

If the Washington State flag is flown on sailing vessels:

Sloops, cutters, and schooners


While underway - sailing vessels with one mast should fly the U.S. Ensign at the stern staff, or two-thirds of the way up the leech of the mainsail (or at the top of the leech, if gaff-rigged). The Washington State flag should fly at the starboard spreader, or on the forward mast of a schooner.

While at anchor - The U.S. Ensign should fly from the stern staff and the Washington State flag from the starboard spreader.

Yawls and ketches

While underway - The U.S. Ensign should fly at the stern staff or at a position two-thirds up the leech of the mizzen sail (or at the peak of the leech of the mizzen sail, if gaff-rigged). The Washington State flag should fly at the starboard spreader ("at the starboard spreader" means the spreader on the most forward mast if more than one and from the most outboard hoist of that spreader.)

While at anchor - The U.S. Ensign should fly from the stern staff and the Washington State flag from the starboard spreader.

If the Washington State flag is flown on motorboats:

While underway and at anchor - The U.S. Ensign should fly from the stern staff and the Washington State flag may be flown from the forestaff in lieu of a yacht club burgee.


Motorboats with auxiliary masts should follow the rules for sailboats.

So now you know more.

Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 13:21   #34
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 5,499
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Though I have one, I rarely sail with a country flag of origin on the stern as it would interfere with the Monitor wind vane, dinghy davits, solar panels, fishing poles, etc....take your pick.
However, the home port is clearly emblazoned on the stern, allowing anyone with half a brain to deduce which country I'm from. Being a US documented boat, means there are no State of other numbers at the bow which could or would provide another clue.

However, my courtesy flag is always visible and in the correct location, but doesn't have to compete with any other flags, so I'm off the hook......right ??
The above excerpt makes a lot of use of the word "should" leading me to believe that this is an option, otherwise one might see the word " must" in it's stead.
So far, in 35 years of cruising, I've never been hassled about flag etiquette by anybody anywhere.
MicHughV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 13:28   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,734
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

MicHugh

Understand that placing the Ensign could interfere with your other equipment.

Perhaps an arrangement like this would enable you to wear the USA Ensign so as to provide clarity of nationality while underway with sails.

Some countries require the vessels of their nationality to wear the country's ensign, e.g., the UK, Israel. I believe for USA vessels it is a should not a must.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	flag mainsail.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	405.7 KB
ID:	269144  
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 13:44   #36
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 5,499
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Let me throw something else out there for consideration.
Maybe not in the B'mas, but other parts of the world, advertising your boat's country of origin can lead to unexpected vitriol.
MicHughV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 14:00   #37
Registered User
 
Zanshin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 57
Posts: 2,123
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
Let me throw something else out there for consideration.
Maybe not in the B'mas, but other parts of the world, advertising your boat's country of origin can lead to unexpected vitriol.
While that may be true, not flying your ensign is inviting the maritime police coming and censuring, perhaps fining the vessel and perhaps worse.
I was interrogated on the VHF and escaped a fine once while sailing past Montserrat; I'd furled my (British) ensign as required while offshore and not in sight of a vessel. I'd missed the patrol boat coming alongside and only saw them when I was hailed. Luckily I only had to unfurl the ensign and say that I was sorry, but they could have made trouble for me.,
__________________
Zanshin sailing
Zanshin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 14:16   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,734
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Oh, another useful bit of guidance. Do endeavor to fly the flag proper side up, not upside down or inverted.



By way of example, apparently 55% of Britian's do not know which direction to fly their National Flag.

And at the US Pentagon, the Ukrainian flag incorrectly hung yellow strip up.



I recall seeing the Flag of Texas flying upside down on their State Capitol below the USA flag.

It is all too common to see a tricolor flag or a bicolor flag hung incorrectly inverted. e.g., German flag with black strip at the bottom instead of the top; Ukrainian flag flown yellow / blue instead of blue / yellow.

I swear the flags should have written on them, "This side up" and the name of the country to avoid confusion.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	British flag.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	73.7 KB
ID:	269145   Click image for larger version

Name:	Ukraine flag upside down.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	98.5 KB
ID:	269146  

Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 14:43   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,734
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Non-US Citizens operating vessels register / titled by a State in the USA terroitorial waters


One misconception is that noncitizens can get around the strict rules of US Coast Guard documentation by simply state titling and registering their boats. Unfortunately, it isn’t that simple. To avoid confusion, a noncitizen’s vessel can be titled/registered in most states, but the vessel will not have freedom of movement. United States Customs treats vessels based on their nationality. A US state registered/titled vessel does not have a “flag” or nationality, so if a vessel is not foreign flagged or documented with the Coast Guard (U.S. flagged), then it assumes the nationality of its beneficial owner, and it must wear the Ensign / Flag of the nationality of the beneficial owner or master if not operated by the beneficial owner. [In this instance, the US national flag would be flown as a courtesy flag.] Hence, a noncitizen’s boat, if titled and registered in Florida or Delaware, is considered to be a foreign vessel, and is thus treated as such. In this case, a vessel must obtain something called a “Permit to Proceed” from U.S. Customs in order to move from port to port. Failure to follow these regulations can result in fines or even seizure of the vessel itself. As such, foreign citizens typically choose to register their boats in other jurisdictions to avoid customs formalities by obtaining a U.S. cruising license.

For example, a vessel registered by the State of Delaware does not obtain USA nationality under UNCLOS. Accordingly it will be assimilated as a vessel without nationality and will not receive the rights, obligations and benefits associated with such nationality. A vessel is not flagged by any US State Government, flagging is only provided by the United State's Federal Government.

Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 15:05   #40
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 5,499
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Your average charterer reading this thread, must be thinkin....wtf ??
It probably behoves the charter company to explain some basic flag etiquette to any would charterer prior to setting off in their multi-$$$ vessel.
MicHughV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 15:18   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,734
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Does anyone know which of The Bahamas flags to use for a courtesy flag, The Bahamas national flag or The Bahamas civil ensign?

There seems to be no general rule about courtesy flags. Some countries that have a civil ensign and a national flag, consider the national flag appropriate, others that it is the civil ensign which should be flown.

Alistar what say you as to preference, if any?

Merry Christmas.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	bahamas national flag.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	85.5 KB
ID:	269148   Click image for larger version

Name:	bahamas civil ensign.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	45.6 KB
ID:	269149  

Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 15:22   #42
Registered User

Join Date: May 2018
Location: Urbanna, VA
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 99
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
Does anyone know which of The Bahamas flags to use for a courtesy flag, The Bahamas national flag or The Bahamas civil ensign?
The flag that Amazon sends me is the flag to use.
Cheyne is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 15:43   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Algarrobo, playground of the rich and famous.
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 7,966
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
Oh, another useful bit of guidance. Do endeavor to fly the flag proper side up, not upside down or inverted.



By way of example, apparently 55% of Britian's do not know which direction to fly their National Flag.

And at the US Pentagon, the Ukrainian flag incorrectly hung yellow strip up.



I recall seeing the Flag of Texas flying upside down on their State Capitol below the USA flag.

It is all too common to see a tricolor flag or a bicolor flag hung incorrectly inverted. e.g., German flag with black strip at the bottom instead of the top; Ukrainian flag flown yellow / blue instead of blue / yellow.

I swear the flags should have written on them, "This side up" and the name of the country to avoid confusion.

Some Montanians don't know how to spell *britons*.

A proper flag should have - at the top of the hoist - an inglefield clip close up to the flag.

Edited bit - you can see what I've been up to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglefield_clip

There should be a tail below the hoist of the same length as the hoist. This means the flag wont be hoisted upside down. It also separates the flags in a four flag hoist and can be used to 'wrap' the flag up so it can be stowed in the flag locker.
In the world I used to inhabit - that of the British Merchant Navy - the red ensign would be on the gaff until first line ashore when it would be transferred to the ensign staff. Company house flag at the main mast peak - superior to all other flags. Courtesy flag at the foremast yard arm.

This ship is UK flagged and in a UK port so no courtesy flag. Pilotage signal on port yardarm. Q flag and H flag on the triatic stay for convenience.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	3236046.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	417.3 KB
ID:	269150  
__________________
A little bit about Chile can be found here https://www.docdroid.net/bO63FbL/202...anchorages-pdf
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 15:54   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Algarrobo, playground of the rich and famous.
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 7,966
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
Does anyone know which of The Bahamas flags to use for a courtesy flag, The Bahamas national flag or The Bahamas civil ensign?

There seems to be no general rule about courtesy flags. Some countries that have a civil ensign and a national flag, consider the national flag appropriate, others that it is the civil ensign which should be flown.

Alistar what say you as to preference, if any?

Merry Christmas.
This would suggest the one on the right
https://www.bahamasmaritime.com/the-...-bahamas-flag/
__________________
A little bit about Chile can be found here https://www.docdroid.net/bO63FbL/202...anchorages-pdf
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2022, 16:17   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,734
Re: Flag Protocol for Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Some Montanians don't know how to spell *britons*.
Indeed this Montanan who lived in England for four years should learn to spell in proper British English. I suppose it would be proper to include the Saxxons.
A proper flag should have - at the top of the hoist - an inglefield clip close up to the flag. Learn something new everyday.

Edited bit - you can see what I've been up to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglefield_clip

There should be a tail below the hoist of the same length as the hoist. This means the flag wont be hoisted upside down. It also separates the flags in a four flag hoist and can be used to 'wrap' the flag up so it can be stowed in the flag locker.
My Montanan spell checker did not flag the misspelling.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Bahamas, rot

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Canadian flag or change to British flag on buying boat drcot3 Dollars & Cents 5 26-02-2015 11:09
Protocol When Cruising With Guns swami maximus Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 145 07-11-2013 19:49
Aussie Flag or US Flag on Vessel ? AllezCat Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 48 25-05-2011 05:14
Entering a Foreign Port - VHF Protocol sweetsailing Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 4 24-02-2009 14:44
Datamarine 5000/5100 protocol? johnfreed0 Marine Electronics 0 12-04-2008 13:07

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.