Cuba - Warning non-American Boats

[xiabbo]

The Helms Burton act (which Jimmy Carter has called one of the most embarassing laws ever passed) extends the Cuban embargo to anyone doing business with Cuba. So if Toyota sells cars to Cuba, technically the CEO of Toyota may be barred from entering the USA. In fact under federal law, Toyota could be barred from doing business in the USA.

We should bear in mind that Castro was a Bad A$$ mo fo in his day. He won his power looking down the barrel of a gun - a lot like George Washington. When USSR had their missiles there, Castro wanted to launch. For this, he will never be forgiven. The embargo is a political tool at this point, designed to pander to an influential voting block in a swing state (think Bush/Gore).

The real stupidity is that these Cuban expats actually believe they will go there and take back what they lost fair and square. When these old geezers finally pass from this mortal coil, it may be possible to mend fences. The new generation just wants to sell them Toyotas and big macs.

[xiabbo]

Congress routinely passes a bill to lift the embargo and the President routinely vetos it. No US president wants to be the one to pardon Castro.

[svBeBe]

I am always amazed at the general lack of knowledge among groups that are full of experts.

My favorite statistic is that 95% of all statistics are made up...yep, proven true right here.

If you want to complain about US laws regarding Cuba, complain to the voting-bloc of Cuban Americans who have insisted that the US create and maintain these Cuban policies. Yep, democracy at work. Very difficult to get elected president unless you carry Florida...AND, if you do not carry Florida (Al Gore), you do not win the presidential election.

That said, complain to the Cubans living in Florida.

AND, if you do not believe there is a blanket, count the US aircraft carriers, nuclear subs, stealth bombers and F117's that supplement NATO.

AND...if you do not support any of this, please turn OFF your GPS because that is part of the US blanket which is free to you compliments of the US.

Bill

[ice]

Originally Posted by Nemo55

So yes indeed the agreement stands and is reciprocal,,The Canadian Operators Permit is Honored in the U.S

I think you missed the point, which is that there is NO requirement in the US for any operator's permit (for normal pleasure vessels). So, Canadians can sail to the US and don't need anything 'extra', while Americans going to Canadian waters (for more than 45 days) are suddenly forced to get some sort of Operators permit.

So, it's not 'reciprocal' in the sense that the Canadians are requiring something of American cruisers that is not required in the US and that the US is not requiring of Canadians.

The requirement is to produce the American equivalent of an operators certificate or License.

There is essentially no US equivalent. The Canadians will of course recognize a full commercial license (6 pak or 100 ton) but the vast majority of American cruisers do not have or need those. So, usually the easiest course for an American is to get the Canadian operator permit - I did it over the internet but I believe (but am not sure) that's no longer allowed and you now have to show up in a class room?

..........

[David_Old_Jersey]

Looking forward to us Brits getting compensation for the assets "stolen" by the so called "Free" Americans.

But probably call it quits for the US not giving us a Batista or a Papa Doc.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by ice

........
I think you missed the point, which is that there is NO requirement in the US for any operator's permit (for normal pleasure vessels). So, Canadians can sail to the US and don't need anything 'extra', while Americans going to Canadian waters (for more than 45 days) are suddenly forced to get some sort of Operators permit.
..

Not quite correct, it appears there are 44 states that require a boat safety permit, and the Canadians accept them.

Our problem is that it is being handled state by state with different requirements, instead of nationally like the Canadian permit, but I guess it is similar to car driver licensing.

List of states that BoatUS has tests for:
Boating Safety Course with Online Exam - Get Your Boating License or Certification


John

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by LeaseOnLife

Well, pointing to a library and say it is in there, thanks, I guess...

The webpage-link states in the first paragraph:

Does this include the Canadian, coming from Cuba, wanting to sail home?

If your boat is made in the US you should worry about the rules enforced by a US federal agency called BIS. At the botto of this post there is a quote from a document published by them.

Bottom line in my undertsanding is that in addition to the OFAC rules that everyone seems to know about (and are for the most part irrelevant to non-Americans sailing boats that are not registered in the US) there are the BIS rules, which also apply to boats MADE in the US, regardless of where the boat is before going to Cuba and the nationality/greencar status of its crew. There are not many published cases of enforcement of BIS rules about Cuba on pleasure boats where there was no OFAC violation.In fact I know about only one case but I would like to know more because I am not American, never had a Green Card but my boat is made in the US, hence subject to the BIS rules that include the one mentioned in the 3rd bullet point below. More detail of on ecase of enforcement in the following link:

efoia.bis.doc.gov/exportcontrolviolations/e1058.pdf

The relevant bit of US law is 15 C.F.R. 764.2(a) "Exporting a Vessel without the Required License". same can apply to the "ship stores" onboard the boat, the dingy, etc. It is my understanding that if your boat or stuff in it is made in the US you may be covered by that bit of law even if the boat is not reg´d in teh US and the crew are not Americans and do not have a Green Card.

"The export license requirements related to vessels were imposed by the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, as amended. There are three different statutory requirements related to vessels. They are:
• Any vessel that engages in trade with Cuba cannot load or unload any freight anywhere in the United States within 180 days from departing the Cuban port, unless authorized by a liceose from OFAC;
• Any vessel carrying goods or passengers to or from Cuba, or carrying goods in which Cuba or a Cuban national has any interest, cannot enter any U.S. port without OFAC
authorization; and
• "Ship stores" cannot be exported on any vessel carrying goods or passengers to or from Cuba or carrying goods in which Cuba or a Cuban national has an interest, without a BIS
license.

The BIS license requirement is for the "ship stores" on-board a vessel. Examples of ship stores are the bunkering fuel, petroleum and related items, and food and medicine for the crew. Aspecific BIS license is required, even though the vessel is only going on "temporary sojourn" to Cuba. BIS processes "ship stores" vessel license applications under the same procedures as all license applications, per Executive Order 12981. BIS recommends to shipping companies seeking "ship stores" vessel licenses that they apply for licenses for their fleets or class of vessels appropriate for the type of authorized goods that will typically be transported, rather than for individual vessels. Because a BIS license is valid for 24 months, these shipping companies would not need to seek additional licenses during that 24 month validity period. BIS has
experienced an increase in "ship stores" vessel license applications as a result of the increase in agriculture trade since the passage of the TSRA. Please note that all vessels, excluding those controlled by the State Department on the U.S. Munitions List, are controlled on the Commerce Control List. Most vessels are controlled in Export Control Classification Number (ECCN) 8A992.f; some are controlled in ECCN 8AOOI. There are no vessels that are classified as EAR99.
If you have specific inquiries regarding exports or reexports to Cuba, please contact the BIS Export Counseling Division at 202-482-4811 or submit a query from the BIS webpage."

[Maggie-K]

Originally Posted by ice

You do know that US vessels entering Canadian waters have to check in and get a cruising permit number (max of 90 days I believe) and if we stay more than 45 days must get a Pleasure Craft Operator Card (or similar) - which I might note the US does not require of Canadians in its waters. This is in no way an 'open border' going either way.

You do know Canadians also have to check in and get a permit or Decal and pay a fee for it . There is also a time limit on their stay. I was just in Cuba , Lovely country great people fine rum and cigars almost no crime ,just screwed up politics. In the future I do hope it does not become another rich mans paradise like so many of the other islands , Get there while it's good.

[AnchorageGuy]

Putting the politics aside, they ALWAYS come up in multiples on a post with the word Cuba in it, the problem the original poster had is typical of Homeland Security in Key West. They don't actually have cause based on any real laws or regulations, instead try and intimidate and hassle anyone, including non US citizens that have traveled to Cuba. If one checks in any place other than the Florida Keys you won't have this problem. They will even threaten foreign flagged vessels that plan a trip to Cuba, but they have no real authority to do anything. Having said that, keep in mind that they have the guns and they can always find some other way to hassle you and make your life miserable. Just because they can. The best resolution is to transit to and from anyplace except the Keys. Chuck

[markpierce]

Meanwhile, there are a lot of other hot, humid locales to visit.

[Dulcesuenos]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Oh no, a Yamaha will get you jailed as quick as the Honda will; see rule 6.
The onus of proof is on you to prove your innocence. So you have to prove to the satisfaction of the Australian authorities that you have never purchased a Toyota, Honda, Sony or any other Japanese product. If you cannot prove this, you will be assumed to be guilty under Australian law.

Why did you think that a Yamaha was OK?

Maybe because i've seen a pdq w yammies a d know a an endeavourcat sold their with a yamaha

[ice]

Originally Posted by cal40john

Not quite correct, it appears there are 44 states that require a boat safety permit, and the Canadians accept them.

List of states that BoatUS has tests for:
Boating Safety Course with Online Exam - Get Your Boating License or Certification

No, not correct. Most (I suspect all, but did not check them all) of those states do NOT require a boat safety permit for normal pleasure boat operation. Those are (mostly) optional programs (for normal pleasure vessels), and the vast majority of US sailors do not have that sort of certificate.

Again, a Canadian sailor can enter the US without having to get any additional certificate/license, which a US sailor entering Canada (for more than 45 days) IS required to get an operators permit of some sort.

Originally Posted by Maggie-K

You do know Canadians also have to check in and get a permit or Decal and pay a fee for it . There is also a time limit on their stay.

Yes, certainly, agreed, if you look back, you will see that my original point was that this is not an 'open border'. Sailors need to go thru international check-in procedure both ways. It was in response to a comment about the Jay treaty.

And I will say that I find the Canadian procedure (except for the operator's permit requirement) to be much more satisfactory than the US procedure. The Canadian procedure is relatively clear and uniformly interpreted and tailored to efficiently serve the pleasure boater's requirements, while the US procedure is clear as mud and interpreted quite differently in Florida vs San Juan Islands vs Maine vs St John island (all places I have cleared in multiple times).

We have cleared into and out of foreign ports 100's of times, and had 4 'difficult experiences' and 2 of those were with American officials (who I believe did not know they law, but it is not worthwhile arguing with them). Frankly the whole clearance deal (Worldwide) for pleasure boats is a bit stupid, because those of us trying our best to follow the law are hassled when we make a minor error while those intentionally breaking the law do so easily.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by ice

No, not correct. Most (I suspect all, but did not check them all) of those states do NOT require a boat safety permit for normal pleasure boat operation. Those are (mostly) optional programs (for normal pleasure vessels), and the vast majority of US sailors do not have that sort of certificate.

Since I had read most states that had requirements were similar I assumed that to be true. I know Washington has a required permit for boats over 15 hp. Looking at the first 10 states alphabetically on this list I found 4 required permits, 2 required permits after a law infraction, 3 required permits only for minors in some way, and 1 had no requirement.

Boating Class Requirements for Your State - Boat Ed, Official Boating Safety Courses

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Meanwhile, there are a lot of other hot, humid locales to visit.

You are quite right...no reason to go Keys..
Might visit Miami..

[Astrid]

those of us trying our best to follow the law are hassled when we make a minor error while those intentionally breaking the law do so easily.

As someone once said, no good deed goes unpunished.