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Old 12-05-2020, 07:08   #61
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Public property is public property.
So what the taxpayers of Block Island and Washington County pay for should be yours? I simply don't agree. It is theirs, and theirs to decide who can access it. In my adopted home town of Annapolis every street that ends in the water has a dinghy dock. That is a city investment for 1. convenience of residents and 2. to bring tourism revenue to the city. It's a choice and not some mandate or moral imperative. Block Island does not owe you access at any time, much less during a pandemic.

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Responsible quarantine is WAY easier on a boat. If you’re really on the boat. Doing deliveries isn’t quarantining at all. So your perspective is off.
I agree that doing deliveries is not de facto quarantining. I have lived aboard for many many years, and lived in houses. There is nothing magic about boats that makes quarantine easier or better. In our current home our nearest neighbor is 1,000 feet away. We don't need to buy fuel or take on water. We have more refrigeration, freezer, and pantry space than most boats.

Oh - grammar and spelling count. Jeepers.
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Old 12-05-2020, 07:42   #62
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

Public access to and from shore is not defined as use by the public who pays the taxes. Unless you want ‘papers please’ check points?

Get real.

A home is what? (Not a HOUSE)
Farm? High rise small apartment? RV? Triple decker apartment? Boat?

You don’t get to define the definition my home. I don’t get to infringe on others based on my choice of home. Shelter in place are words that should not exist - ‘papers please’

I live in New England, almost never go to RI or any of its waters, there are better options for us. We are closely watching harbors and the overbearing management of such. I will be voting with my wallet on where we go moving forward.
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Old 12-05-2020, 07:45   #63
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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So using the public dinghy dock or public beach qualifies as “access to what others own?”

Still trying to figure out this thing others own I’m expecting access to. Last I checked, the dinghy dock, the sidewalk and the public beach were public property just like the highway, etc.

You don’t actually own a boat, do you?

The most basic concepts of boats/cruising seem to be escaping you.


As for it not being about the 1%, did you happen to notice the median vacation home price there? 1 MILLION dollars. So if you own an everyday average price $1,000,000 vacation home there, “welcome ashore.” Otherwise, “no facilities for you.”

Though it’s not nearly as bad as Newport which is the main point of the 1% comment. Block island is more a quarantine situation.

https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...lock-Island_RI

So tell me again, where is this thing other people own I should be paying for access to?
Mr. Chotu,

"Public" does not mean you own it or paid for it. Simply appearing from over the horizon does not give you unfettered access to the investments of a local municipality. That local government and the taxpayers who support the investment get to make the decisions.

And, yes, I do own, live on and actively sail my boat. When I'm not on lockdown, that is. Quite possibly that is why I have managed to make just 33 posts in 5 and 1/2 years.
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Old 12-05-2020, 08:27   #64
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Originally Posted by two-rocks View Post
Public access to and from shore is not defined as use by the public who pays the taxes. Unless you want ‘papers please’ check points?
Nope. That isn't the way the law works in the United States or most other countries.
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Old 12-05-2020, 08:30   #65
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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THE PUBLIC HEALTH RULES ARE DIFFERENT IF YOU ARE SPENDING SERIOUS MONEY IN RHODE ISLAND.

I like a good argument as well as the next guy, which is why I'm glad Chotu phrased it this way. If he had simply said "The rules are different if you are spending serious money", there would be no argument at all.
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Old 12-05-2020, 08:45   #66
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Nope. That isn't the way the law works in the United States or most other countries.
Try again... united STATES.

Don’t care about other countries. This is a RI thread?
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Old 12-05-2020, 08:54   #67
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Sure they can. There is no law that I am aware of that guarantees you safe harbor.


let me just quote a short section from Protection of Persons and Property at Sea and Maritime Law Enforcement :

"The obligation of mariners to provide material aid in cases of distress encountered at sea has long been recognized in custom and tradition. (which I think we all recognize here)

A right to enter and remain in a safe harbor without prejudice, at least in peacetime, when required by the perils of the sea or force majeure is universally recognized. (the right to safe harbor is also actually long-standing)

At the same time, a coastal nation may lawfully promulgate quarantine regulations and restrictions for the port or area in which a vessel is located. (and yes, the right to impose quarantine restrictions are long-standing - we have special flags for this). "

I will note that anchoring in block island for pleasure would not have much to do with safe harbour. I just leave it there as legal discussions on this forum usually are fruitless.
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Old 12-05-2020, 09:10   #68
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

There is a law that says that you cannot be denied a safe harbour unless there is a risk of pollution or disease. It is part of many international treaties. It is also the case that if a harbour master demands that you leave, when they know that there is a problem with the boat which makes it unsafe to go to sea, they can be held personally liable for the consequences.
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Old 12-05-2020, 09:15   #69
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
let me just quote a short section from Protection of Persons and Property at Sea and Maritime Law Enforcement :

"The obligation of mariners to provide material aid in cases of distress encountered at sea has long been recognized in custom and tradition. (which I think we all recognize here)

A right to enter and remain in a safe harbor without prejudice, at least in peacetime, when required by the perils of the sea or force majeure is universally recognized. (the right to safe harbor is also actually long-standing)

At the same time, a coastal nation may lawfully promulgate quarantine regulations and restrictions for the port or area in which a vessel is located. (and yes, the right to impose quarantine restrictions are long-standing - we have special flags for this). "

I will note that anchoring in block island for pleasure would not have much to do with safe harbour. I just leave it there as legal discussions on this forum usually are fruitless.
Nailed it.

Safe harbor but with limits as to the granting, availed safely at anchor.

The regulations that have been imposed are quarantines, they apply to land and sea. As to recreational boating, that definitely lies near the top of non-essential purposes. Going walkabout, is also a non-essential activity be that departing from a land based residence or a vessel.

As to the entire 1% and wealth attributes that simply is irrelevant as to quarantine regs and protocols. The virus does not distinguish at to its hosts.

A quick look through the real estate listing on BI, reveals the prices to be at or less than prices in the San Francisco Bay Area. Not cheap but not extraordinary and given the limited stock of residences on the isle I would have expected a higher price derived from second home appeal.
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Old 12-05-2020, 13:14   #70
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Originally Posted by skenn_ie View Post
There is a law that says that you cannot be denied a safe harbour unless there is a risk of pollution or disease.
Footnote please? Official sources only.
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Old 12-05-2020, 14:44   #71
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Footnote please? Official sources only.
Likely to be country specific legislation amending their rights under UNCLOS. I haven't discerned the Merchant Shipping rules of the UK, but there are specific aspects as pollution. If you Google search the subject you likely will be able to determine the specific laws for the waters that are of subject interest.

An interesting reference. Any Port in a Storm?
The Right of Entry for Reasons of Force Majeure or Distress in the Wake of the Erika and the Castor
CHRISTOPHER F. MURRAY*

https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/...V63N5_1465.pdf

A few snipets of the very lengthy document.

"the tale of two tanker ships, the Erika and the Castor. Both ships found themselves in distress on the high seas, with cracks in their decks and oil in their holds. Both ships requested permission from coastal authorities to enter protected waters. European coastal states, naturally fearful of the environmental and political consequences that harboring a large disabled
vessel might raise, refused entry to both ships.
The Erika was ultimately destroyed, its hull split open by the relentless power of the North Atlantic. The oil it was carrying spoiled the French coast. 1 Its crew was miraculously saved by a combined search-and-rescue force from the French Coastguard, the French Navy, and the British Royal Navy. The Castor was ultimately spared by the seas, but only after a hellish forty days at sea and a series of harrowing at-sea rescue and cargo removal operations performed by Spanish search-and-rescue forces and commercial mariners. 2 Both incidents highlight difficult tensions and ambiguities in international law.
First, for centuries ships in distress on the high seas have enjoyed a right of
entry into the waters of coastal states. Such entry had to be necessary for the safety of the vessel or its crew.3 The ship's predicament typically had to be caused by some condition of force majeure or distress.4
The right of entry is now codified under the United Nations Convention on
the Law of the Sea ("UNCLOS"), discussed below.5 It is an exception or defense to the coastal state's exercise of jurisdiction over the disabled ship. 6 This exception or defense to the coastal state's jurisdiction prohibits, inter alia, the coastal state from excluding the disabled ship from its territorial sea. Arguably,both Erika and Castor, as ships in distress, should have been entitled to this right of entry. 7
Second, and conversely, coastal states have an inherent right of self-defense. This right in some circumstances arguably gives states the right to keep dangerous ships away from their shores. Further, coastal states have sovereign duties to protect their populations and their environmentally sensitive coastal areas. These concerns make coastal states naturally wary of allowing disabled vessels carrying hazardous cargoes into their waters. Consequently, as illustrated by the Erika and Castor incidents, some coastal states are not allowing disabled vessels into their waters.



. . .
111
The Draft Articles on Responsibility of States for Internationally
Wrongful Acts were promulgated by the International Law Commission, an arm of the United Nations, in 2001. While not adopted as a treaty in force, the Draft Articles are generally understood to represent mandatory customary international law. The reason for this is
that they are generally understood to reflect state practice. See id The Draft Articles suggest that a state may breach international law to defend itself. This is logical because a state's inherent right of self-defense is paramount under international law. Self-defense naturally enjoys exalted status on the hierarchy of international rights and obligations. Thus, even if any
of the states involved in the Erika and Castor incidents did breach an international obligation.
under UNCLOS, inter alia, the Draft Articles suggest that such a breach may be permissible under international law if it is necessary for self-defense:


the Draft Articles on the Law of State Responsibility do not have
any specific limitations on the term self-defense. 119 Thus, it is plausible to read the term self-defense broadly. 120 In this light, self-defense could be read to include things such as keeping dangerous ships and cargoes away from coastal populations and environmentally sensitive areas.


The Draft Articles on Responsibility of States for Internationally
Wrongful Acts
Chapter V
Circumstances precluding wrongfulness
Article 21 Self-defence
The wrongfulness of an act of a State is precluded if the act constitutes a lawful measure of self-defence taken in conformity with the Charter of the United Nations.

First, it would have to be established that one of the coastal states breached its international obligations. Although the law at issue here is a multilateral treaty, the alleged injury caused by denying refuge to a ship is bilateral, state to state. A ship's flag state would have to take up its ship's cause. To date, none of the flag states have made any efforts to allege that the coastal states involved violated their international obligations. Additionally, the
conditions that excuse state responsibility would arguably provide strong defenses to any state in such a situation




This broader reading of self-defense dovetails with a concurrent narrow
reading of force majeure and distress. If force majeure and distress are limited by notions of fault and assumed risk, it makes sense to say that a state has some claim to self-defense where a dangerous ship is seeking entry and that ship is at least partly responsible for the condition in which it finds itself.



five rationales suggest that the right of entry was not implicated in the
Erika and Castor incidents. First, perhaps modern search-and-rescue capabilities of coastal states obviate the need to allow entry to distressed ships. 128 Second, arguably states could prohibit entry to distressed ships as a proportional countermeasure to the unlawful acts of other states. 129 A third argument is that the need to protect the marine environment gives states the power to keep dangerous vessels out of their territorial sea.130 A fourth argument is that a coastal state's needs for border control and security' 3' heighten its interest and authority in keeping all ships, including endangered ships, out of its territorial sea132 Lastly, international shipping has changed so dramatically over the last fifty years, both in terms of total tonnage and the actual size of the ships themselves, such that the right of entry for reasons of force majeure or distress is an antiquated notion.
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Old 12-05-2020, 15:58   #72
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Mr. Chotu,

"Public" does not mean you own it or paid for it. Simply appearing from over the horizon does not give you unfettered access to the investments of a local municipality. That local government and the taxpayers who support the investment get to make the decisions.

And, yes, I do own, live on and actively sail my boat. When I'm not on lockdown, that is. Quite possibly that is why I have managed to make just 33 posts in 5 and 1/2 years.
In fact it does give you access, that’s what public means. Or do you believe that communities can bar undesirables from taxpayer funded facilities? Like Black people or Hispanics? Or perhaps people over age 65 or whose parents were born in another country? Or just people who live in the next town down the road?
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Old 12-05-2020, 17:36   #73
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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In fact it does give you access, that’s what public means. Or do you believe that communities can bar undesirables from taxpayer funded facilities? Like Black people or Hispanics? Or perhaps people over age 65 or whose parents were born in another country? Or just people who live in the next town down the road?
It does not. No covenant of unfettered access to all comers exists when a local municipality uses locally sourced tax revenue to create a "public" anything. Furthermore, the definition of "public" has no single, universal meaning as you imply.

Simply put, the people who are paying for a public accomodation, in this instance the tax payers, and the people charged with representing the payers interests, in this instance the local officials, are privileged to reserve the right to control access. Why would any group pay to create something for the local public advantage if hordes of non-local non-payers could cancel their intentions?

Disagree? Then the next time you go to a Public Pool or a Public anything and the person in the kiosk asks for your wallet then just say it's "public" and drive right through.
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Old 12-05-2020, 17:39   #74
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

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Or just people who live in the next town down the road?

For this one, they can. If it's a town facility that's paid for by local property taxes, they absolutely have the right to limit it to town residents only or to charge out-of-town users.
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Old 13-05-2020, 10:06   #75
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Re: Block Island, RI Regulations Report 2020

I'm glad I didn't go to law school and never made a spelling error or typo. :-)
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