Solid state batteries

[Lindsaymcm]

Toyota expects to produce EVs powered by solid state batteries within 3-4 years, with a range of 1200 kms and 10-minute charge time.

What are the implications for the future of boat propulsion?

Further reading:
https://carboncredits.com/toyota-rev...BoCn0IQAvD_BwE

“Toyota further noted that this discovery will enable it to halve the size, cost, and weight of EV batteries. That also means significantly cutting charging times to 10 minutes or less while increasing the driving range to 1,200 kilometers (745 miles).”

“Some experts call solid-state the “kiss of death” for gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles.”

[Opie91]

Originally Posted by Lindsaymcm

“Some experts call solid-state the “kiss of death” for gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles.”

Not the first time this claim has been made about many technologies. Even if they are everything they claim to be batteries still will not even be close to the energy density of petroleum based fuels.


One day, maybe. That will be a great day.

[shrspeedblade]

They’ve been making the same ******** claim for over the last decade.

It’s merely a tactic to get people to wait to buy an EV “a little longer.”

[leecea]

A while ago I saw an article about a company that put a 200Kwh battery pack in a Tesla and got around a 750 mile range. If that's about the power you need, and you are going to charge it in 10 mins, that would require a charger that puts out a lot of power.

[Adelie]

Worth talking about it once it starts being put in retail products.
Until then it’s vaporware to use a computing term.

Right now the most interesting energy storage tech actually hitting stores is Sodium Ion Batteries.

Energy density and specific energy somewhat below LFP but looks to be WAY cheaper and longer lived.

[Nicholson58]

Whatever comes along the underwriters will probably refuse to insure it on boats. I want one of those mini-nukes like Amazon is using and Texas plans.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Whatever comes along the underwriters will probably refuse to insure it on boats. I want one of those mini-nukes like Amazon is using and Texas plans.

still waiting for my 50kW reactor to put on the boat. I'll even take a pair of 25s

[CarlF]

It will be a revolution for trucks but it won’t have a big impact on cruisers.

For us the problem isn’t “battery” but “charging”. If you only need a motor to get in and out of the harbor, today’s lithium batteries work fine. 50% cheaper and smaller won’t change things a lot for long distance cruising boats.

Running a diesel genset to charge batteries for electric motors uses MORE fuel and emits more greenhouse gasses per mile than using a diesel engine to turn a prop shaft. That’s never going to change - basic physics. This is the “big lie” of most of the electric boat marketing claims.

Even a large 3kw solar array (bigger than most boats can fit) will get you less than an hour’s motoring per sunny day. And that assumes you don’t use that charging for all the “hotel” loads on a boat like refrigerators and induction stoves.

If you wanted to plug in a few times a day at a dock with a “fast charger” (which don’t exist yet), then it could work great — but that’s not what most cruisers want to do.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CarlF

It will be a revolution for trucks but it won’t have a big impact on cruisers.

For us the problem isn’t battery but charging. If you only need a motor to get in and out of the harbor, today’s batteries work fine. And 50% cheaper is always good.

But for longer trips or anchoring out, running a diesel genset to charge batteries for electric motors uses MORE fuel and emits more greenhouse gasses per mile than using a diesel engine to turn a prop shaft. This is the “big lie” of most of the electric boat marketing claims.

Even a large 3kw solar array (bigger than most boats can fit) will get you less than an hour’s motoring per sunny day. And that assumes you don’t use that charging for all the “hotel” loads on a boat like refrigerators and induction stoves.

If you wanted to plug in a few times a day at a dock “fast charger” (which don’t exist yet) then it could work great — but that’s not what most cruisers want to do.

it’s almost like we need some kind of propulsion device that would work off grid and away from shore. something that was good for the environment, sustainable, and where we could get propulsion power anywhere.

if only they would invent such a thing ha ha ha

[Johan Leopard51]

On powercat I am looking at the Integrel offering.

Essentially, their drive version sits between motor and gearbox around the shaft. When on diesel, unit generates around 15+15 kW to use to charge big battery bank. When switch to electric drive, you have around 20+20 Hp propulsion which won’t get you plane but is fine. For context, 40Hp would be about the diesel output (propellor power curve) at 1250rpm or over 8 knots on our cat. So a 100kWh bank could run trawling speed for fishing maybe 3hours. We often trawl with one motor fine, so maybe more than 3h.

Idea would be that we retire the Northern Lights gennie and put a large 48V LiFePO4 battery bank in its compartment, with 48:12 supply to the old house bank so as to keep the 12V systems stock standard. Also put down max solar we can fit on flybridge. And big AC upgrade via 48V battery inverter to be able to run aircons and electric grill without damned generator.

Problem might be retrofit the drive version, so probably we end up with their unit just replacing gennie. I doubt retrofit electric drive is going to be easy for most vessels. Need about half a ruler space between motor and gearbox. 6 inches may in this case be too much.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by CarlF

It will be a revolution for trucks but it won’t have a big impact on cruisers.

For us the problem isn’t “battery” but “charging”. If you only need a motor to get in and out of the harbor, today’s lithium batteries work fine. 50% cheaper and smaller won’t change things a lot for long distance cruising boats.

Running a diesel genset to charge batteries for electric motors uses MORE fuel and emits more greenhouse gasses per mile than using a diesel engine to turn a prop shaft. That’s never going to change - basic physics. This is the “big lie” of most of the electric boat marketing claims.

Even a large 3kw solar array (bigger than most boats can fit) will get you less than an hour’s motoring per sunny day. And that assumes you don’t use that charging for all the “hotel” loads on a boat like refrigerators and induction stoves.

If you wanted to plug in a few times a day at a dock with a “fast charger” (which don’t exist yet), then it could work great — but that’s not what most cruisers want to do.

I won't argue with your math, you are correct with respect to the impact on the earth....if you are charging only by the generator. If you were charging your batteries on shore power or other means such as solar while in harbor the math changes. My Oceanvolt electric has required fossil fuel charging once in about 5 years.

[denverd0n]

In terms of the impact on the environment, most people ignore the massive impact of the strip-mining that provides almost all of the heavy metals that batteries require. And no one wants to talk about the toxic waste problem when these batteries eventually have to be disposed of. But these are serious environmental problems that really SHOULD be discussed.

[barnakiel]

Yes. All this.


In power boats.


Meanwhile, in a sailing boat, the technology already in place is pretty much good enough. Good range and enough power. And enough regeneration power from hydrogenerators.


Imho a big benefit for today would be more safety. Contrary to what the youtube influencers say, fires with lithium banks are not all that uncommon.


So I do hope Toyota's new take will be not just more efficient, but more importantly, safer.


b.

[shrspeedblade]

The materials in lithium batteries are recyclable, and in fact are too valuable, not to do so!

There are different chemistries of lithium batteries. Lithium iron phosphate batteries are incredibly safe for use on boats.

Either of these statements are easy to verify through casual investigation. Be wary of people working for big oil for free on the Internet.

[shimari]

Ben Stein / Panbo recently did a story on solid state batteries https://panbo.com/ibex-2024-solid-st...ium-batteries/

It seems they present some problems as their nominal voltage is 14.4 and charges 16.8. Most electronics won't like that charging voltage.