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Old 06-02-2020, 23:01   #121
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by Ken Fry View Post
You can probably understand that "your truth" might not be "the truth'. You have a perspective that appears to ignore physics and history, but that's OK.

General Dynamics, a company well known by many people around the world, started as Electric Boat Company in 1899.

Duffy started in 1970, and has been happily and quietly selling electric boats since then.

Perhaps you don't believe either of the previous 2 sentences, but you can probably understand that the OP will, given his much different perspective.

I note your location. Do you keep your boat in the Langley harbor? I vaguely think I might have seen a Nordic there. I had a place on Hat Island for a while, and it was the travel back and forth to Everett that caused me to design my hybrid rigid wing/electric sailboat. I was travelling back and forth very often, in all sorts of weather, and not exactly for leisure (although the whole exploit on Hat Island falls under the category "Leisure"... I didn't have a "job" out there, but had plenty of work to do every day.)

For my needs, having a boat that could be sailed fast much of the time, but also motored fast (18 knots or so) drove the decision to ditch the MacGregor and its 60 HP gas guzzler, and go with the reliability, freedom from stench, and quiet of electric power. The failing of the Mac, aside from its awful yet useful engine, (which occasionally would not start... and when running would spew as many emissions in an hour as a Volvo does in a year), was that it could not be sailed fast. In addition, I wanted to have "sail on its lines" unsinkability -- which is quite useful (potentially) and comforting. The MacGregor's positive flotation (particulary in cold water) is comparatively useless, because after holing, it leaves the boat still visible above the water, but not able to move under its own power. The skipper, swimming in the cockpit, would have perhaps eight minutes before hypothermia would cause his or her demise if the water is 53 degrees. The heirs might appreciate that the boat can be salvaged more easily than if it sunk... but then taking the insurance money for a sunk boat is certainly easier.

I've sailed in quite a few different areas, but it was not until sailing from Hat Island that I started to feel that I could hit something big, anytime. (In fact, hitting something big (gently and with intentional care) was nearly standard operating practice some days, just to be able to get in and out of the harbor.

It is probably best to try and keep Langley secret, but it has got to be one of the country's most charming towns!

Poke around your area. On the mainland you will find a company named Boeing, which many others consider a "bigger player." They like the idea of electric power in boats.
https://www.boeing.com/defense/auton...ger/index.page

BTW, you may know that there is a guy on Hat Island who used to commute back and forth every day to take his kids to school, on his traditional cotton-stuffed-planked-swelled-up wooden sailboat. He can calmly tell stories about how, after a haulout and getting the boat back into use, he found a few hundred gallons of water in the bilge about halfway between Hat and Everett. But he is here to tell the story.
Ken,

I keep my boat at anchor outside of Langley Marina in the summer when I am not making short trips to BC or AK. The meaning of short is three weeks to two months. In the winter I keep it in a marina, this year in Anacortes.

Your two examples of electric boats define the problem with electrics.

Echo Voyager weighs 50 tons and is limited to 2.5 knots and 150NM range.

Duffy boats largest offering is a 22 foot launch with a top speed of 6 knots, at top speed it can run for 6.5 hours, it weighs 4300 lbs.

It would be interesting to know how much of these weights are for the batteries and the volume of the batteries vs useful payload of the Echo Voyager.

It is also interesting to note that the only electric boats that General Dynamics makes today are nuclear powered and are built with nearly unlimited budgets.

My "truth" is obviously not your truth. I have circumnavigated and have put over 135,000 nm on my Nordic over the last 29 years. On a few occasions I have motored at near idle speed in dead calm for days on end. From Honolulu to Ucuelet, Vancouver Island we motored so long that we burned 80 gallons of diesel (at a quart an hour!). A 21 day voyage - the longest time of any voyage I have ever made. I have sailed longer distances in shorter times and burnt no fuel. My "truth" is that going up the inside passage to AK requires schedules. These schedules are dictated by tidal currents and rapids. Sometimes requiring the passage of multiple rapids on one leg. Miss the schedule and one day's passage turns into two with poor choices for places to anchor in between.

I made the comment that before engines many sailing ships ended up on the rocks. Some commenters disagreed. Whole flotillas of square riggers foundered because they could not point like modern sailboats and were driven onto the rocks. Read your history. Read the opening of the book or watch the movie Longitude.

So, in conclusion I stand by my opinion that the only time a battery electric drive is viable is if you are day sailing near your harbor. And even then the economics don't make sense. Try to sell a battery electric drive sailboat and see what happens. Maybe someday but not now and not in the near future.
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Old 07-02-2020, 00:30   #122
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Well yes, it does make sense for up to 30 ft on a lake where only E-Motors are allowed. I had an 350W with a 75Ah car battery on an 26 footer but with no wind it always was a challange to get back. Range with lowest speed max 5 NM

We called them "calmpushers"

It is OK for a lake but a no go at sea ( Below an investment between 20 and 40.000 USD for 30 - 50 ft)
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Old 07-02-2020, 00:31   #123
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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First, I am an electrical engineer by training. Second, for a number of reasons that I won't bore you with, I would really, really like to go electric.

Yes electric is viable. It is possible to replace a standard, diesel engine with an electric system that has the same power and range. However to do so will require installing a more complex and much more expensive electric system than the diesel you would replace. A big part of the extra cost and complexity is installing a generator to give the range under power.

Without a doubt a generator is more expensive than a plain diesel engine and certainly more complex and in my experience is less reliable over the long run.

Jedi is quite correct that one would not need to install a generator with the same max output as the diesel engine one would replace but, depending on the cruising style, circumstances, area, etc one would have to install a battery bank to supply the higher power needed for short term high power draw in situations like close quarters maneuvering, emergencies, etc.

So bottom line, again yes it's viable but based on my calculations, if you buy a commercially available "marine" system you will end up spending double or triple the cost of brand new diesel engine. If you know of a system that is cheaper would be very interested in seeing the information.
You mention: I would really, really like to go electric.

This is electric. It's my Windrocket.
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/30/6b/ed/3...0692d5f902.jpg

You might need to adjust your cruising style a little, but people in the R2AK have used smaller boats to cruise 750 miles to Ketchican.

It's 16 feet long, 20 feet wide, and 20 feet high to the top of the wing.

The electric motor would power it at a about the hull speed of a typical 16 foot boat. It was used only when the wind went to flat calm. Nothing other than an electric motor would make sense, economically. The smallest possible trolling motor was probably $75 back then (2000 or so) at Walmart, and sufficient battery capacity for the mission was less than that. The smallest available outboard was then about $1000 and still is.

So at this end of the spectrum, electric power is clearly the cheapest, easiest way to go.

I think it is in this thread that I mentioned using an electric motor on my Hobie 33. Same economic benefit, and also a substantial weight benefit vs the 9.9 outboard. Served my needs perfectly.

So a boat can be bigger, and still electric power can be very cheap, and effective, given modest needs.

The boat I am building now will have several motors. Two serve for bow and stern thrust, as well as for leisurely motoring. I use an Arduino to interface with a pretty slick little dual motor drive. So, via a joystick, I can spin the boat around its center, translate port and starboard, hold it against a dock, etc. A third motor will provide outboard-like power (15 kW or so). The last with its batteries and controller will weight a little less than the outboard, and cost less. Range will be a very small fraction of the range of the outboard with a 12 gallon tank. It's only for docking, maneuvering in a harbor, clawing off a lee shore, etc.

There are more things I want to do with this boat, than with the Hobie, but it still makes economic sense to use electric motors.

All three of these boats are ultralights, and very easily pushed through the water (the Windrocket so easily that it could do 3 times windspeed in an 8 knot wind).

I mention all this to say that powering an ultralight is easier (by sail or electric motor) than powering a heavy displacement boat. So in deciding go/no go re electric propulsion, you have to think about the entire system, and consider what compromises you are willing to make to have less noise and pollution. Greer's 48 footer (solar Great Looper) is much lighter than your boat, appears to have far less windage and has loads of solar panel space. By virtue of things like that, he doesn't need any sort of diesel, never fuels up, never plugs in. And his system is very simple.

So there is a huge advantage, if you really want to go electric, to starting with a boat that requires less energy to move. Then it sails better, so you need auxiliary power less. But when you must motor, you consume less energy too. It's the vicious cycle thing.

However, if I had a boat likes your's, I'd think about a single generator that would supply all the boat's needs. I'd purpose-build that from a bare diesel engine (12 hp) and a PMAC motor, and would probably do voltage control via engine speed control, and shut off the engine when load dropped. (This is what I did with my Zing plug-in series hybrid.) The PMAC motor would also start the generator.

I'd charge via propulsion regen, which is simple without the need for any hardware, wiring, etc other than already used for motor supply and control. Variable pitch prop would help.

I'd fit as many solar panels as possible, given the space available.

In the interests of simplicity, I'd charge a single large battery bank, probably to 72 volts, but would have one or two smaller batteries (charged from the main bank via converters) for reserves (basic nav equip, etc.)

On a great sailing day, you'd charge mainly via regen. Whenever the sun shines, you'd charge via solar. You'd only start the generator (automatically) when it can work at high load, and shut it off automatically when load is light (meaning the battery is nearing the end of bulk charge).

Jedi mentioned Electric Motorsports. Good folks.
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Old 07-02-2020, 02:12   #124
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Ken Fry


the simple difference is 500kgs vs. 20 tons to move safely.
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Old 07-02-2020, 08:01   #125
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Fry View Post
You mention: I would really, really like to go electric.

This is electric. It's my Windrocket.
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/30/6b/ed/3...0692d5f902.jpg

You might need to adjust your cruising style a little, but people in the R2AK have used smaller boats to cruise 750 miles to Ketchican.

It's 16 feet long, 20 feet wide, and 20 feet high to the top of the wing.
Adjust my cruising style? Sorry but don't see any chance of this. I'm not going to give up liveaboard and cruising for day sailing or similar cruising style just so I can go electric.

Also I don't see getting rid of my 42' liveaboard for a 16' wing or for that matter any significantly smaller boat that "might" be more compatible with electric power. This makes no more sense to me than recommending one get rid of their car and buy an electric bicycle.

As far as cruising the inside passage to AK or in my case ICW up and down the US east coast. Both are technically possible with electric but neither cost effective. It still comes down to range under power and with current technology that is only possible two ways; with a generator or a small barge load of batteries and solar panels to charge them

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Originally Posted by Ken Fry View Post
The electric motor would power it at a about the hull speed of a typical 16 foot boat. It was used only when the wind went to flat calm. Nothing other than an electric motor would make sense, economically. The smallest possible trolling motor was probably $75 back then (2000 or so) at Walmart, and sufficient battery capacity for the mission was less than that. The smallest available outboard was then about $1000 and still is.

So at this end of the spectrum, electric power is clearly the cheapest, easiest way to go.
I have said many times, electric can be practical for small boats that just need power to get from the dock or mooring to deep water. Once you get into bigger boats if one ever might need to motor more than 20-30 miles or so electric is not the best option. It costs a LOT more and you still end up with a diesel engine in the boat.



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So a boat can be bigger, and still electric power can be very cheap, and effective, given modest needs.
With great emphasis on "modest needs".


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Originally Posted by Ken Fry View Post
I mention all this to say that powering an ultralight is easier (by sail or electric motor) than powering a heavy displacement boat. So in deciding go/no go re electric propulsion, you have to think about the entire system, and consider what compromises you are willing to make to have less noise and pollution. Greer's 48 footer (solar Great Looper) is much lighter than your boat, appears to have far less windage and has loads of solar panel space. By virtue of things like that, he doesn't need any sort of diesel, never fuels up, never plugs in. And his system is very simple. .
Of course it's easier to power a lighter boat. But in the real world of cruising sailboats ultra light goes away as soon as you start adding food, fuel, water, tools, spares, etc, etc, etc. Plus on a monohull sailboat space for solar panels is very, very limited. In my case and that of I think 90% or more of cruising sailors going electric would pretty much require a complete change in where they cruise and how they live.
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Old 07-02-2020, 08:16   #126
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Ken Fry


the simple difference is 500kgs vs. 20 tons to move safely.
Exactly. And that difference is not trivial.
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:01   #127
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Don't know about "truth" but numbers don't lie. Here's what I've determined from doing the numbers over and over. Lest my motives be suspect let me preface my remarks with a couple of comments. First, I am an electrical engineer by training. Second, for a number of reasons that I won't bore you with, I would really, really like to go electric.

Yes electric is viable. It is possible to replace a standard, diesel engine with an electric system that has the same power and range. However to do so will require installing a more complex and much more expensive electric system than the diesel you would replace. A big part of the extra cost and complexity is installing a generator to give the range under power.

Without a doubt a generator is more expensive than a plain diesel engine and certainly more complex and in my experience is less reliable over the long run.

Jedi is quite correct that one would not need to install a generator with the same max output as the diesel engine one would replace but, depending on the cruising style, circumstances, area, etc one would have to install a battery bank to supply the higher power needed for short term high power draw in situations like close quarters maneuvering, emergencies, etc.

So bottom line, again yes it's viable but based on my calculations, if you buy a commercially available "marine" system you will end up spending double or triple the cost of brand new diesel engine. If you know of a system that is cheaper would be very interested in seeing the information.
Perhaps this is part of each person's "truth" as well, but I take issue with your assessment of the relative complexities; I don't consider a diesel engine coupled to a transmission and rigidly mounted to a prop through a packing gland "simple"; the vibrations induced by the diesel are doing their best to turn that hole in the boat into a leak all while shaking the hull mercilessly in the process. But an electric motor eliminates these forces and should also be a ton easier to align. Similarly, why is a generator more complex than a straight diesel? If anything, it's simpler, just with a really big "alternator" and fewer things hanging off drive belts (if any), and it can be located anywhere. I can't speak to the actual reliability of a generator used in a series hybrid, but I suspect any perceived reliability shortcomings of generators over straight diesels has more to do with maintenance and frequency of typical use, not anything inherent in the design, but I don't have any data to back that assertion up.

I think of electric components as being fairly simple, relatively maintenance-free and a lot closer to "Tinker Toys" with straightforward connections and non-moving parts, vs. the sophisticated complexity of even a 40 year old diesel with oil/diesel/air filters, exhaust elbows, raw water flow maintenance, miles of plumbing and seals, injectors with very tight clearances and low tolerance to fuel debris among some of the concerns. A 5kW generator may cost more than a 10hp diesel, but probably not more than the 50hp diesel it's likely replacing in a series hybrid. As Stormalong mentioned that he "motored at near idle speed in dead calm for days on end", his 50-80hp diesel was likely consuming a ton more fuel than a suitably sized generator running at peak efficiency, and he has no backup for when his diesel dies other than sails, whereas a series hybrid switches to electric only and has 10-40 miles of range still left in batteries alone while attending to the issues in the generator.

I think that diesels have been around so long that most (all) sailors have adopted the proficiency and literacy needed to keep the beasts running and perhaps don't see them as complex anymore, and as engines go, they can be wonderfully straightforward to maintain. There's no question about the range: diesel is still 12kWh/kg vs Lithium at only around 250Wh/kg, even at only 20% conversion efficiency there's no comparison. But how one gets that energy converted into thrust has a number of different options now, and while diesel-electric may be more expensive at the outset, it has a ton of advantages and in the long term may in fact be cheaper. I wish we could share some of these solutions without so many proclamations about how electric just "isn't viable yet... maybe in 50 years" when there's ample evidence to the contrary already. I think the energy density jump largely spearheaded by Tesla has made the weakest link in the electric option (the battery) far more practical and cheaper. Also, some early longevity data on Tesla cars shows that most of the packs should last as long as 25 years on average; far above the 2-5 year replacement schedule originally considered necessary a decade ago.

Regardless, I hope to have more actual hard data to contribute in the next couple months as I wrap up my conversion starting with electric-only local sailing initially. From twin 18hp Yanmar 2GM20Fs through SD20 sail drives to twin 7.1kW E-Tech POD drives on custom retractable arms with large props powered by 10.6kWhr of Tesla battery, all while still having 800lbs left to add more battery and/or generator as appropriate. My sterns are hilariously 4-5in above their original normal position with the diesels...
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Old 07-02-2020, 17:26   #128
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Ken Fry


the simple difference is 500kgs vs. 20 tons to move safely.
There is no "simple difference".

Electric motors safely move ships of far more than 20 tons every day, and have been doing so for many decades. Electric power, in many different architectures, can be the most economical alternative, or the least. But one cannot make any blanket statement without sounding incredibly ill-informed if not a little belligerent.

Several of my boats were naturals for electric power, and several were not. Some new sailboats are routinely purchased with electric propulsion, others are not.

By writing about how electric propulsion has worked for me, I am not trying to suggest that you should power your boat the same way, but am offering the benefit of my experience, to anyone so inclined. And I am happy to do some math for anyone seriously interested.

Electric propulsion is seen in boats ranging from 28 lb kayaks to huge ships. Many people are making it work well. Some, like Greer, are cruising thousand of miles on solar power alone, using as much battery accumulation as they need for their style of cruising. I think that is a good thing, not a bad thing. His boat goes as fast as a similar-sized sailboat, but he doesn't need the costly, heavy, and complicated mast(s), boom(s), multiple sails, winches, tangles of rope, etc. He doesn't need to worry about when to reef or shake out a reef.

Sailing uses solar power, insolation being the cause of winds. Greer's approach just makes the conversion more simple and direct.

Sailboats range from extremely slow to very fast, and "cruising" has a wide range of meanings for different people. Thousands of people successfully cruise without any electrics or engines on board. Our OP has thought about all the negatives folks have raised, and for him, they apparently are not issues, because he is pretty far along in the design process. He did not come here asking for simplistic platitudes, or explanations regarding how a particular person finds the idea of electric propulsion hard to grasp or not applicable to their boat.

He asked for experiences with electric systems and hardware. I have such experience: I've used the GBS cells he proposes -- they work very well, better than manufactures promised and customers expected, in many cases. I have used one of the motors from the vendor the OP is considering, and found it to match specs. (In fact, many of these motors are shipped with the dyno run printout for that particular motor.)

The OP will make this work. These things are anything but magic.

If you can't make it work, don't sweat it.

To others I would say "Do the math, and see if some solution will work for you, in terms of cost, duration, noise, emissions, convenience, weight, safety, and on and on. And on. And on. Decide what you need and want."

Sadly, there is nothing involved in these decisions that is even remotely as simple as being able to articulate that 500 kg and 20 tons are different values. It requires substantially more thought than that, and the OP appears to have done a lot of the required thinking.

We can help the OP by saying, "Yes the GBS cells work well", "Yes your motors work well" or "I found it hard to find a good BMS" We can also perhaps make him happy by saying "Wow. How cool." I see little harm, and perhaps significant benefit, in that.
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Old 07-02-2020, 17:37   #129
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Adjust my cruising style? Sorry but don't see any chance of this. I'm not going to give up liveaboard and cruising for day sailing or similar cruising style just so I can go electric.

Also I don't see getting rid of my 42' liveaboard for a 16' wing or for that matter any significantly smaller boat that "might" be more compatible with electric power. This makes no more sense to me than recommending one get rid of their car and buy an electric bicycle.
Sorry, I did not dream that you would take me that literally.
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Old 07-02-2020, 18:19   #130
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Perhaps this is part of each person's "truth" as well,
I'm not sure how this thing about "truth" is so relevant. There's facts and numbers. This is science and engineering, not mysticism.


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but I take issue with your assessment of the relative complexities; I don't consider a diesel engine coupled to a transmission and rigidly mounted to a prop through a packing gland "simple"; the vibrations induced by the diesel are doing their best to turn that hole in the boat into a leak all while shaking the hull mercilessly in the process.
I think you are confusing simplicity with bad installation. Whether that setup vibrates or not has nothing to do with it's simplicity or complexity but how well it is installed and aligned. And I'm sure you know that there are tens of thousands of boats with this exact setup and the overwhelming majority of these have little or not problem with vibration. I've owned or skippered five boats with diesels and shafts and never had a problem getting them aligned and running with minimum vibration.

Yes a single electric motor would generally be easier to align but it doesn't follow that a diesel with transmission will be impossibly difficult.

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Similarly, why is a generator more complex than a straight diesel? If anything, it's simpler, just with a really big "alternator" and fewer things hanging off drive belts (if any), and it can be located anywhere. I can't speak to the actual reliability of a generator used in a series hybrid, but I suspect any perceived reliability shortcomings of generators over straight diesels has more to do with maintenance and frequency of typical use, not anything inherent in the design, but I don't have any data to back that assertion up.
I think the additional complexity of a generator would be obvious. Not only do you have the diesel engine but also the big alternator and all the associated bits for voltage regulation, governor to keep the frequency on, a number of switches and safeties tied to temp, oil pressure, etc. A good, relatively new, well maintained generator can be very reliable but compared to just a diesel engine there'a lot more stuff to break and maintain. Not to mention that electricity and salt air and water are not the most compatible things in the world. Over time the moisture and humidity takes it's toll on wiring, switches, relays, etc.

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I think of electric components as being fairly simple, relatively maintenance-free and a lot closer to "Tinker Toys" with straightforward connections and non-moving parts, vs. the sophisticated complexity of even a 40 year old diesel with oil/diesel/air filters, exhaust elbows, raw water flow maintenance, miles of plumbing and seals, injectors with very tight clearances and low tolerance to fuel debris among some of the concerns.
You seem to keep ignoring the fact that to go electric and get the range comparable to a diesel powered boat you have to add the generator that has what? A diesel engine.
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Old 07-02-2020, 18:26   #131
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Sorry, I did not dream that you would take me that literally.
Sorry but I didn't understand that you were not "speaking" literally.

If you didn't mean it as I read it then could you perhaps explain for me in simpler terms as I am an engineer and do tend to take things literally.
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Old 07-02-2020, 19:36   #132
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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You seem to keep ignoring the fact that to go electric and get the range comparable to a diesel powered boat you have to add the generator that has what? A diesel engine.
No no no you forgot that we’re talking about the auxiliary propulsion; range is determined by primary means, i.e. wind and sails
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Old 07-02-2020, 21:14   #133
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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No no no you forgot that we’re talking about the auxiliary propulsion; range is determined by primary means, i.e. wind and sails
Well yes sailing has always been my preference. However traveling the US ICW sailing just is not practical. Have some plans to cruise some of the canals and rivers in Europe and sailing isn't really an option there either.

Also I've made passages across the Caribbean when I was becalmed for days. With an engine and 300-400 mile range under power I was able to motor out of the calms and save many days of rolling around at sea waiting for a breeze. Don't know about you but I would rather ride out a moderate gale than to sit becalmed rolling around with the sails slatting and the boom slamming back and forth.
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Old 07-02-2020, 21:23   #134
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Well yes sailing has always been my preference. However traveling the US ICW sailing just is not practical. Have some plans to cruise some of the canals and rivers in Europe and sailing isn't really an option there either.

Also I've made passages across the Caribbean when I was becalmed for days. With an engine and 300-400 mile range under power I was able to motor out of the calms and save many days of rolling around at sea waiting for a breeze. Don't know about you but I would rather ride out a moderate gale than to sit becalmed rolling around with the sails slatting and the boom slamming back and forth.
Traveling the ICW under sail and electric has been done many times, successfully. Canals and rivers in Europe you need a motorboat. In the Caribbean, like anywhere else, you need to wait for the right weather to make sure you can sail. You are describing a motorsailer, not a sailboat. Some use their sailboat as a motorsailer (incl. me) and then the motor becomes part of the primary means of propulsion.
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Old 07-02-2020, 21:36   #135
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Traveling the ICW under sail and electric has been done many times, successfully. Canals and rivers in Europe you need a motorboat. In the Caribbean, like anywhere else, you need to wait for the right weather to make sure you can sail. You are describing a motorsailer, not a sailboat. Some use their sailboat as a motorsailer (incl. me) and then the motor becomes part of the primary means of propulsion.
Of course the ICW has been done under sail and electric. Also been traveled by kayak. People have crossed the Atlantic in 12' boats as well. But just because it has been done or can be done doesn't mean it's something I would want to do. Just doesn't sound like my idea of fun.

I guess by your definition what I do might make my boat a motorsailor butu in American vernacular a motorsailor is typically a fat boat with a small rig and big motor. In this context I would call my boat a sailboat with an auxiliary diesel engine. Certainly won't sail like a Sundeer but it not what us Muricans would call a motorsailor.
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