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Old 17-02-2020, 07:22   #121
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Electric for propulsion is STILL essentially a pipe dream for cruising sailors. Even with immense solar and lithium, range and running time in ideal conditions is minimal, add wind, waves, and current and it is abysmal.

A hybrid or ancillary way to charge is a requirement i.e.. diesel powered ac or dc generator, not an option. While you can regenerate some while sailing, the drag of the props really detracts from sailing performance. If your style of cruising is using the engine to get away from the dock or anchor only, and sailing from that point it may be acceptable, but this is neither a realistic or desirable option for most cruisers.

The one advantage electric hybrid propulsion could offer is extended range for a given amount of fuel, when compared to twin diesels. Needless to say their is a huge cost premium to pay for a hybrid electrical system that would pay for many years of fuel required for a diesel powered boat.

On the other hand big solar and lithium are absolutely viable to go all electric on a cruising sailboat (with the exception of propulsion) with the absolute possibility of eliminating one of the three engines i.e. generator, propane cooking, in addition to simplifying and making a safer boat when plugged in at the dock.
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Old 17-02-2020, 07:50   #122
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by longjonsilver View Post
Well said.
There’s one or now two in every crowd. Good luck Jimmy!
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Old 17-02-2020, 07:51   #123
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Electric for propulsion is STILL essentially a pipe dream for cruising sailors.
It is reality for many already!

Is it time to admit that the real reason for engines is you don't want to bother sailing in difficult weather or narrow waterways. Don't want to wait for weather to make passages or tide to make harbors all at the expense of the environment which is inevitably bad for all of us. It is a selfish goal to justify engines when technology for solar powered electric is better than ever.
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Old 17-02-2020, 07:51   #124
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

oh please
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Old 17-02-2020, 07:57   #125
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by pbr View Post
Electric for propulsion is STILL essentially a pipe dream for cruising sailors. Even with immense solar and lithium, range and running time in ideal conditions is minimal, add wind, waves, and current and it is abysmal.

A hybrid or ancillary way to charge is a requirement i.e.. diesel powered ac or dc generator, not an option. While you can regenerate some while sailing, the drag of the props really detracts from sailing performance. If your style of cruising is using the engine to get away from the dock or anchor only, and sailing from that point it may be acceptable, but this is neither a realistic or desirable option for most cruisers.

The one advantage electric hybrid propulsion could offer is extended range for a given amount of fuel, when compared to twin diesels. Needless to say their is a huge cost premium to pay for a hybrid electrical system that would pay for many years of fuel required for a diesel powered boat.

On the other hand big solar and lithium are absolutely viable to go all electric on a cruising sailboat (with the exception of propulsion) with the absolute possibility of eliminating one of the three engines i.e. generator, propane cooking, in addition to simplifying and making a safer boat when plugged in at the dock.
I suppose that's why all you anti-electric trolls still use whale oil lamps and heaters aboard huh.....oh wait as minute, how did you post? with a computer? Well, bless my soul a technology adopter in luddite clothing
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Old 17-02-2020, 08:01   #126
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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I suppose that's why all you anti-electric trolls still use whale oil lamps and heaters aboard huh.....oh wait as minute, how did you post? with a computer? Well, bless my soul a technology adopter in luddite clothing
Troll? I have built sailing catamarans and tested them with electric drives have you? To the contrary I am not anti electric, currently refitting many catamarans to lithium, big solar, alternators, electric galleys, just not propulsion.
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Old 17-02-2020, 08:06   #127
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

nope, don't sail catamarans but I am in the process of converting my mono to electric propulsion. Spent 37 years as EE in electric utility business plus last 11 in solar development so I guess I know a thing or three about energy production and consumption
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Old 17-02-2020, 08:12   #128
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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nope, don't sail catamarans but I am in the process of converting my mono to electric propulsion. Spent 37 years as EE in electric utility business plus last 11 in solar development so I guess I know a thing or three about energy production and consumption
It absolutely can make sense in small monohull mostly day sailed
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Old 17-02-2020, 09:03   #129
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Very interesting news from Jimmy Cornell:

His next boat is an Outremer 45 and it will be all electric, ZERO FOSSIL FUELS
Cool!

I first wondered why he is not going for the Aluminum version of the O45 (the Allures 47.9) but meanwhile his choice makes perfectly sense to me.

Zero fossil fuels means you need maximum efficiency. This is the reason for a cat. And a light carbon design is certainly much more efficient (better hull resistance curve) than an aluminum design.
I guess he will combine this with the ultimate hydrogeneration feature from Oceanvolt, featuring adjustable pitch and generating enormous amounts of energy while sailing. Maximum solar power is certainly a must have.
Accidentally I have the specific shaft power need of the extended Outremer 45 at hand - it is just 3 kW total shaft power (2x1.5) for a speed of 5 kts: Very good choice, Mr Cornell!
Forget these guys that have nothing better to do than find fault.
I completely restored my Pearson 30 and went all electric using Electric Yacht.9.3kw for propulsion. This is the future. Electric still needs more tweaking but with a few added enhancements i supplement my basic 100ah 48v bank with a yeti solar inverter for recharge. Quiet, powerful, and instantaneous response. But lets face it. Its a sailboat. I only need the power to get in and out, anchoring and to head up when i need it. Enjoy the boat. Enjoy the technology . If you want to worry about the environment, think about it when jumping into the gas guzzler to and from the boat Fair Winds. K2
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Old 17-02-2020, 09:51   #130
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Kudos to the gentleman switching to electric. I personally see electric as the future.
Once battery tech improves I expect the market will follow.

I converted my X yacht to an Electric Yacht 10KW system about 8 years ago.

I have had zero issues in 8 years and zero maintenance costs on both electric systems.

I certainly understand the need for many to stay diesel.

I think we all understand the need to do our part when possible to keep things clean and green.

I personally would love a solution to bottom paint.

Sail on!
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Old 17-02-2020, 10:12   #131
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

How about using bio diesel? Renewable non-fossil fuel.
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Old 17-02-2020, 10:30   #132
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

About eight years ago my friend pulled the engine control into reverse and it was amazing! Without starting anything, and almost without sound, the small Hallberg-Rassy started to move decisively away from the pier. I didn't even know they existed then, but this was one of the very first Oceanvolt models in his boat. So cool.

I think we're pretty far along the "hype cycle" and hybrid propulsion (wind, solar, other fuel) will slowly (even inevitably) work itself from the edges towards the center.

What worries me a bit, though, is not so much the range of the systems but the economics of the manufacturers. There are a few small companies offering great systems. I'm sure they won't all get to the mainstream era in their current configuration
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Old 17-02-2020, 10:54   #133
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Very interesting news from Jimmy Cornell:

His next boat is an Outremer 45 and it will be all electric, ZERO FOSSIL FUELS
Cool!

I first wondered why he is not going for the Aluminum version of the O45 (the Allures 47.9) but meanwhile his choice makes perfectly sense to me.

Zero fossil fuels means you need maximum efficiency. This is the reason for a cat. And a light carbon design is certainly much more efficient (better hull resistance curve) than an aluminum design.
I guess he will combine this with the ultimate hydrogeneration feature from Oceanvolt, featuring adjustable pitch and generating enormous amounts of energy while sailing. Maximum solar power is certainly a must have.
Accidentally I have the specific shaft power need of the extended Outremer 45 at hand - it is just 3 kW total shaft power (2x1.5) for a speed of 5 kts: Very good choice, Mr Cornell!

Is that 3kW max, peak, or sustained power? Huge difference. Peak power rating can easily be 3x the sustained power rating, and EP systems typically publish peak rating for motors, controllers, etc. So my concern is that this is probably less than a comfortable power level in adverse conditions. Even if it is 3kW of sustained power, that is still only 4HP. This for a 45' catamaran. Fine for protected waters and reasonably calm conditions, but no reserve. Overpowering with EP has pretty much zero downside. The parasitic losses of simply turning the motor are only slightly greater with a motor of twice or thrice the size. If it were me, I would opt for at least a pair of 5kw motors and controllers. The extra cost is minimal relative to the cost of the whole system including batteries, and the extra energy expended for the same power setting is not particularly significant. On my electric boat I did not see any difference in power consumption between doing 3kts with a 5kw motor and doing 3kts with a 12kw motor.



For cruising, though it has in fact been done and is still being done, I tend to lean against pure electric with no backup generator. A 3.5kW or so diesel genset would improve reliability considerably, at relatively little cost since in fact it would probably not be used very much if a realistic amount of solar is available.



I applaud the use of variable pitch props. That is simply has to be a real dealmaker when trying to use the same prop efficiently for both propulsion and regen. Normally a fixed prop must sacrifice efficiency in one or the other, or else be a compromise that offers optimum efficiency to neither. Variable pitch, at some expense of simplicity and cost, helps achieve near optimum performance in both using and harvesting power. Smart decision, I think.
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Old 17-02-2020, 11:21   #134
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Is that 3kW max, peak, or sustained power? Huge difference. Peak power rating can easily be 3x the sustained power rating, and EP systems typically publish peak rating for motors, controllers, etc. So my concern is that this is probably less than a comfortable power level in adverse conditions. Even if it is 3kW of sustained power, that is still only 4HP. This for a 45' catamaran. Fine for protected waters and reasonably calm conditions, but no reserve. Overpowering with EP has pretty much zero downside. The parasitic losses of simply turning the motor are only slightly greater with a motor of twice or thrice the size. If it were me, I would opt for at least a pair of 5kw motors and controllers. The extra cost is minimal relative to the cost of the whole system including batteries, and the extra energy expended for the same power setting is not particularly significant. On my electric boat I did not see any difference in power consumption between doing 3kts with a 5kw motor and doing 3kts with a 12kw motor.
The Outremer 4E is actually a version of the 4X, so 48' of goodness! And somewhere between 8.2 - 11.7 t of displacement and 2 x 30hp for the specification version.

Comparing to what Oceanvolt has done before with roughly similarly sized catamarans, 2 x 15kW seems like a probable alternative. At least it is my uneducated guess
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Old 17-02-2020, 12:13   #135
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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I suppose that's why all you anti-electric trolls still use whale oil lamps and heaters aboard huh.....oh wait as minute, how did you post? with a computer? Well, bless my soul a technology adopter in luddite clothing
Call me a filthy old emitting luddite if you must, but:

I'm going to make a blue sky guess at the number of zeros I need here but with diesel auxiliaries in sail boats contributing say 0.00000000001 percent of the total of world wide emissions why bother, we can just be a little rationally pragmatic and target our emission reduction efforts towards something that actually might make a difference.
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