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Old 07-11-2021, 02:48   #766
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by CaptainPete222 View Post
I’m a bit surprised he just doesn’t take an existing Outremer 45 or, for that matter, any other cruising cat, and do what he can to show how they can be converted fairly easily and inexpensively to giving the boat the occasional power you want/need from an electric engine without scrapping the existing diesels. Doing that would reduce the use of the Diesel engines by 90% for the vast majority of cruisers (along with reducing the hassle of maintenance). The conversion can also greatly reduce—or, if done right, eliminate—the burning of diesel by running a generator, which for many cruisers, is what burns the most diesel on their boats. Stories on “pretty darn good” solar and electric motor conversions of cats may not be as sexy a story as eliminating the need for diesels altogether, but it will do a lot more practical good for a lot more cruisers (not to mention the planet). Getting rid of the diesels (or buying a brand new Outremer 45) just isn’t a practical solution for 99% of cruisers and, as such, is of little interest to me.
I agree, but it think it's important to remember that he didn't just insist on not bringing a generator on board, he also used a massive amount of energy even while sailing. Several kWh a day in fact, which is why he didn't regenerate the propulsion batteries while sailing.
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Old 07-11-2021, 03:21   #767
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Not directly related but I don't understand why they would tax electric cars by the kilometres....
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-...-tax/100576568
From the linked article:
Quote:
..."Sooner rather than later, we're going to be almost 100 per cent electric vehicles on our roads.
"And we're going to have to have a mechanism which funds the maintenance and replacement of our road network, because fuel excise will completely disappear."
Fuel excise is currently charged by the federal government.
Opponents of the new tax said its passage would slow the state's ambition to be a national leader of electric vehicle uptake...
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Old 07-11-2021, 03:25   #768
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Supply & Infrastructure key to getting Canadians on board with zero-emissions vehicles

Whether driven by high gas prices or a sense of climate change-fuelled urgency, more Canadians are thinking about making the switch to electric vehicles (EV).

According to a recent survey by KPMG [1], nearly 70 per cent of Canadians planning to buy a new vehicle in the next five years are likely to buy electric.

But at the same time, electric cars made up just under four per cent of all vehicle sales last year [2]; even as Canada set a mandatory target for all new cars and light-duty trucks, sold in the country, to be zero emissions by 2035 [3].

However, nearly two-thirds of dealerships in Canada do not have a single electric vehicle available to purchase or test drive, according to a 2020 study [4] commissioned by Transport Canada.

According to Natural Resources Canada [5], there are over 6,000 publicly available charging stations across Canada, but some 12,000 gas stations. During the recent federal election, the Liberals campaigned on a platform, that included spending an additional $700 million, to create 50,000 new electric- and hydrogen-charging stations. Companies are also tackling the infrastructure issue. General Motors recently announced plans to install 4,000 charging stations in Canada as part of its plan to invest more heavily in electric vehicles. [6]

[1] “ Electric Vehicles to make up majority of new car purchases” ~ KPMG February 25, 2021
https://home.kpmg/ca/en/home/media/p...purchases.html

[2] “Zero-emission vehicle registrations down slightly in 2020" ~ Statistics Canada April 22, 2021
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...10422e-eng.htm

[3] “All new cars, light-duty trucks sold in Canada will be zero emissions by 2035, Liberals say” ~ CBC Reporting June 29, 2021
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...2035-1.6085540

[4] “PLUG-IN ELECTRIC VEHICLE AVAILABILITY - ESTIMATING PEV SALES INVENTORIES IN CANADA: Q1 2020 UPDATE” ~ Dunsky Energy Consulting for Transport Canada
https://www.dunsky.com/wp-content/up...y_20200805.pdf

[5] “New EV Chargers Coming to Ontario” ~ Natural Resources Canada August 12, 2021
https://www.canada.ca/en/natural-res...o-ontario.html

[6] “GM to install 4,000 electric car charging stations across Canada” CBC Reporting October 26, 2021
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gm-...cars-1.6225762
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Old 07-11-2021, 06:30   #769
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Thank you, interesting. Will try out the GREET model later to see what happens with different inputs.



From a quick glance I saw "Tesla Model 3 in the United States .. would need to be driven for 13,500 miles (21,725 km) before it does less harm to the environment than a Toyota Corolla. ".



Don't think this can be carried over to boats. But anyways, with an assumption of 6 l/100 km this is 1300 l ~Diesel. And I suppose quite some (smaller) sailboat could sail with this amount for 13 years... Lithium batteries are also dead at this point.


That report and the Reuters summary makes the same error by omitting the pollution caused in producing and distributing the hydrocarbons used by the car, yet it factors in the pollution in generating the electricity !!
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:30   #770
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by Simon.Sails View Post
I agree, but it think it's important to remember that he didn't just insist on not bringing a generator on board, he also used a massive amount of energy even while sailing. Several kWh a day in fact, which is why he didn't regenerate the propulsion batteries while sailing.
Is that really such a huge amount of energy these days though? That type of consumption should be expected on a modern fully fitted out boat.

Here is a real world example from another user here with an all electric boat (but not including propulsion):

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3514324

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
2 Fridges and 1 deep freezer in the tropics account for 150Ah, water maker about 100Ah per day.

Cooking on induction and baking bread another 150Ah per day.

Washing machine when running, light, electronics, fans etc. maybe another 50..100Ah.

We use about 5...6kWh per day at anchor in the tropics, that we get from solar most of the time.
Check his other posts for more info about real world consumption in various situations (including an Atlantic crossing) as well as about regenerating that energy in those varying situations.
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:36   #771
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Is that really such a huge amount of energy these days though? That type of consumption should be expected on a modern fully fitted out boat.

Here is a real world example from another user here with an all electric boat (but not including propulsion):

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3514324
To an extent the amount of electricity used on a boat is a matter of the choices made whether it is modern or not.

Regardless, not figuring out what one's usage prior to setting out and not bringing backup seems unwise.
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:48   #772
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Regardless, not figuring out what one's usage prior to setting out and not bringing backup seems unwise.
Agreed, my comments were really to counter balance what 'a massive amount of energy' may or may not be these days on a fully fitted out boat with all the conveniences.

I take the view that the problem was with generating energy, rather than consumption (eg: in the first instance there was nowhere near enough solar, regardless of the ocean volt questions...) - completing this challenge in an 'old skool' style with minimal comforts onboard would have been a hollow victory from my point of view.


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Old 07-11-2021, 12:16   #773
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
To an extent the amount of electricity used on a boat is a matter of the choices made whether it is modern or not.



Regardless, not figuring out what one's usage prior to setting out and not bringing backup seems unwise.
You have to take all energy forms used, including propane, gasoline, diesel, wind solar and how you provision and live on board. If you buy preprocessed food (refrigeration, conserves) you may have a different energy demand (microwave warming up or heating up in by propane) vs. cooking from fresh produce, baking your own bread or making your own yoghurt. It depends how offgrid you really want to be and for how long without re-stocking.

Some of the food already consumed part of the necessary production energy on land. If you live off grid and do most yourself, you need that energy from somewhere.

It is not all about just charging your phone. You make water from the ocean, you cook, you bake, you make coffee, you need refrigeration to store the food properly and make it last until needed...

It is not about modern or not. It is about independency from bars, restaurants, supermarkets, fuel docks, water taps, sunshine, wind....
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Old 07-11-2021, 13:11   #774
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Agreed, my comments were really to counter balance what 'a massive amount of energy' may or may not be these days on a fully fitted out boat with all the conveniences.

I take the view that the problem was with generating energy, rather than consumption (eg: in the first instance there was nowhere near enough solar, regardless of the ocean volt questions...) - completing this challenge in an 'old skool' style with minimal comforts onboard would have been a hollow victory from my point of view.


There were huge problems both in consumption, and a lesser extent production of energy (not enough solar). But if you read up on all these novel systems he wanted installed it's no wonder he ran out of energy even though the Oceanvolt system could regenerate 2-3kw while sailing.

Read up on his blogs regarding all the energy hungry system he had installed, nothing to do with a "modern" boat or not.
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Old 07-11-2021, 13:23   #775
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

I'm not sure why the word 'modern' was especially picked up on.

But I used the word to describe a boat and a cruising lifestyle that has become common these days, with most of the conveniences available on land - not something more minimalist.

It's relatively easy to make all the numbers work for the more minimalist lifestyle on a boat and that's well proven already.

But I don't think that is what is being discussed now.

Nor do I think particularly small and simple boats are being discussed either.

Making all the numbers work for a 30ft monohull with 1 person is vastly different than for a 40-50ft catamaran with a couple plus guests.

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Old 07-11-2021, 13:30   #776
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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There were huge problems both in consumption...

...Read up on his blogs regarding all the energy hungry system he had installed...
Problems? Energy hungry?

Or simply that is just how those systems work and that wasn't accounted for properly?

You could say that CatNewBee's boat and systems are 'energy hungry' and 'use a massive amount of energy' too.

But my point is really that this type and level of consumption should be expected on a fully fitted out electric systems based boat these days.

There shouldn't be any surprise about that.

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Old 08-11-2021, 02:26   #777
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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Problems? Energy hungry?

Or simply that is just how those systems work and that wasn't accounted for properly?

You could say that CatNewBee's boat and systems are 'energy hungry' and 'use a massive amount of energy' too.

But my point is really that this type and level of consumption should be expected on a fully fitted out electric systems based boat these days.

There shouldn't be any surprise about that.

I suspect you haven't read up on the systems he had installed. No point debating this further without talking about the same thing.
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Old 08-11-2021, 05:40   #778
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Agreed, my comments were really to counter balance what 'a massive amount of energy' may or may not be these days on a fully fitted out boat with all the conveniences.

I take the view that the problem was with generating energy, rather than consumption (eg: in the first instance there was nowhere near enough solar, regardless of the ocean volt questions...) - completing this challenge in an 'old skool' style with minimal comforts onboard would have been a hollow victory from my point of view.



Yes, the "energy" may not be "massive." But it highlights a problem with electric. On our 43' mono, we cook on propane (high energy density), so our load is less than CatNewBee. We burn about 200Ah/day, or 2-3 kWh/day on the rest of our electrics (125Ah on fridge, then other stuff). We currently have 400W of Solbian flex (produces a max of about 200W), so good for maybe 1.2kWh/day if they actually did what they are rated for. The Aesthetic Review Board (the Admiral) has approved an upgrade to about 650W, and that's the end of the solar route for us. So, even using the "4 hour/day" rule of thumb, that's barely breaking even. I'm expecting more like 3 hours/day, or around 2kWh/day, so the engine will do the rest.



On a mono, getting any significant power for propulsion batteries, or even an all-electric boat, requires (in the words of a prior post) a "Helo pad on the back."
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Old 08-11-2021, 10:51   #779
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

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I suspect you haven't read up on the systems he had installed. No point debating this further without talking about the same thing.
Sure I did. I just disagree with you about what is 'massive and power hungry' in today's context.

The point I am trying to make is that those types of systems and that type of energy use is becoming far more normal now (excluding the propulsion which is still a work in progress).

So I think it's better to focus on how to produce and store that amount of energy.

Energy production on Aventura Zero was far lower than it should have been - for multiple different reasons.

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Old 08-11-2021, 12:00   #780
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Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

I mean, if you live landlocked, you have an energy bill in the end of the year where you see your electric consumption, water, gas, oil or wood for heating etc. in your household.

When you live on a boat many of this expenses are similar because you use similar things while living. We need half of the electric energy on board compared to what we used on land before, and in this budget is already the making of water included.

We burn on fuel for the engines and generator about 1/2 of what we used to consume on oil for heating and hot water on land, so again a significant reduction of the footprint. We have no fireplace on board, so no wood burning anymore (used to be 2 cubic meter wood per year), we are in warm regions and save on heating, but may need some cooling from time to time.

The electric bill was about 1800€ (2100$) per year with yearly price increases due to green policies in Germany, now we produce, store and use the electricity from solar from a system, that has cost us initially about 13000€ for the part of generation, storage and making 220V AC when needed and has no further running costs. I think it breaks even after 5 years if you take into account the costs for water and sewage on land - as part of the energy on board goes into making water.

Diesel and Gasoline for commuting to work is no longer in the books. We used to commute / drive 40000km per year in our professional life, that's a lot of fuel we no longer burn.

I mean the Diesel for propulsion / generation on a sail boat is neglectible and not worth replacing with electric yet if you can cover all other daily energy demands with renewable energy. Cruising is definitely less polluting than living in bricks on land and it can be more fun.

Following the Pareto principle to cover 80% of your goal with 20% of the effort, you can easily omit the huge invest and hustle in electric propulsion and still be good enough in saving resources. I don't know when you would break even with an electric propulsion if at all.

Our boat is 2013 built, so 8 years old, we have give or take 1800h on each engine and 660h on the generator - so 530h in sum on all 3 engines per year on average (boat was 4 years in charter and they motored more). You can easily calculate how much diesel it was, how much energy was necessary and what you would have needed to do it with a diesel-electric or plug-in hybrid and for what investment / running costs.
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