Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-12-2020, 17:43   #376
Registered User
 
wingssail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: On Vessel WINGS, wherever there's an ocean, currently in Mexico
Boat: Serendipity 43
Posts: 5,523
Send a message via AIM to wingssail Send a message via Skype™ to wingssail
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Ha ha !!!

Also this one: "I you want the ultimate energy store onboard, do not buy a boat, buy a nuclear plant."

;-)))))

Cheers,

b.
Yeah, see, I like that.

There seem to be quite a few folks who have plenty of bucks and who want a boat with everything and every convenience they're used to in their condo back home (not speaking of J. Cornell, necessarily)

There is a guy on another thread who wants to tow his 23ft center console fishing boat behind his 50' sailboat.

There are quite a few guys (tech bros, mostly) who want to have 100gb Internet speeds and unlimited data anywhere on the ocean.

If you want to keep your 23' center console fishing boat, or you need to have unlimited data and ultimate speed Internet, or whatever land bound luxury you feel entitled to, keep your waterfront condo or SF apartment, and stay home.
__________________
These lines upon my face tell you the story of who I am but these stories don't mean anything
when you've got no one to tell them to Fred Roswold Wings https://wingssail.blogspot.com/
wingssail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 18:33   #377
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,337
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Same here, and nothing that I can find about manual regeneration. Hopefully someone can explain.
As indicated there are 2 modes for OV regen, Auto and Manual. Auto is controlled for fluctuations in boatspeed by the controller that averages out things, and works best when boatspeed is pretty consistent.

In manual regen mode, you fiddle with the throttle after pushing the regen button, to find the optimum output, which is the rpm that spins the blades just open but no more. When you've hit the spot you'll see the regen output figure jump up. This is more effective when the boat is in choppy water, gusty conditions or sailing downwind with boat acceleration down waves.

Cornell would have been producing about 1.6 kWh to 1.7 kWh from the OV regen during his 10 hour trip at average 8.2 knots when all boat systems were in operation. Since at the end of the trip he had nett + 5.3 kWh added to the battery charge, that means he used between 10.7 kWh to 11.7 kWh to run the boat for 10 hours, ie. over a Kw per hour. That's pretty heavy consumption IMO, and yet the OV regen during the trip ran that load and still recharged the battery. So, whats wrong with that?

The fact that, in other conditions that were lighter, he drained the battery,....well what a surprise.

He must have had a Victron BMV 712 battery monitor, which would have been reading either a positive + or negative - battery charging state. If you're sailing along on regen and the battery monitor says you are in negative, it means you're using more power than you're producing, from all sources. If you ignore that and keep doing what you're doing, you will flatten you're battery. Pretty basic, really.
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 18:54   #378
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Indonesia
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 3,922
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
As indicated there are 2 modes for OV regen, Auto and Manual. Auto is controlled for fluctuations in boatspeed by the controller that averages out things, and works best when boatspeed is pretty consistent.



In manual regen mode, you fiddle with the throttle after pushing the regen button, to find the optimum output, which is the rpm that spins the blades just open but no more. When you've hit the spot you'll see the regen output figure jump up. This is more effective when the boat is in choppy water, gusty conditions or sailing downwind with boat acceleration down waves.



Cornell would have been producing about 1.6 kWh to 1.7 kWh from the OV regen during his 10 hour trip at average 8.2 knots when all boat systems were in operation. Since at the end of the trip he had nett + 5.3 kWh added to the battery charge, that means he used between 10.7 kWh to 11.7 kWh to run the boat for 10 hours, ie. over a Kw per hour. That's pretty heavy consumption IMO, and yet the OV regen during the trip ran that load and still recharged the battery. So, whats wrong with that?



The fact that, in other conditions that were lighter, he drained the battery,....well what a surprise.



He must have had a Victron BMV 712 battery monitor, which would have been reading either a positive + or negative - battery charging state. If you're sailing along on regen and the battery monitor says you are in negative, it means you're using more power than you're producing, from all sources. If you ignore that and keep doing what you're doing, you will flatten you're battery. Pretty basic, really.

Seriously, in anything other than steady state sailing I would need to use the manual mode to adjust the RPM of the propeller on every wave and with every change of boat speed?!? Thatís insane and pretty much useless for higher performance cruisers which will surf on every wave. On a passage average of 9 knots our top speeds will surge to 20 and low speeds 6-7.

Seems like a Watt & Sea unit would be much easier to use, but for our boat we would need the racing model and that really drives up the cost.
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 19:57   #379
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,337
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Seriously, in anything other than steady state sailing I would need to use the manual mode to adjust the RPM of the propeller on every wave and with every change of boat speed?!? Thatís insane and pretty much useless for higher performance cruisers which will surf on every wave. On a passage average of 9 knots our top speeds will surge to 20 and low speeds 6-7.

Seems like a Watt & Sea unit would be much easier to use, but for our boat we would need the racing model and that really drives up the cost.
Gee, you're good at jumping to conclusions! ......Who said anything about needing to keep adjusting the RPM's ????

No, once you get the props to spin open, that is the minimum rotational RPM to keep them open. So you can go faster and slower but they will stay open and keep regenerating.
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 20:42   #380
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Beijing
Posts: 718
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Gee, you're good at jumping to conclusions! ......Who said anything about needing to keep adjusting the RPM's ????

No, once you get the props to spin open, that is the minimum rotational RPM to keep them open. So you can go faster and slower but they will stay open and keep regenerating.
That seems like something they can solve in software.....eventually.
Yihang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 20:45   #381
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Texas
Posts: 32
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Gee, you're good at jumping to conclusions! ......Who said anything about needing to keep adjusting the RPM's ????

No, once you get the props to spin open, that is the minimum rotational RPM to keep them open. So you can go faster and slower but they will stay open and keep regenerating.
Did they say if oceanvolt taught them the technique? Or was it just not used by everyone on the boat?
Milkmannosoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 21:36   #382
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,337
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yihang View Post
That seems like something they can solve in software.....eventually.
Not sure there is anything to solve. What are you referring to?
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 21:46   #383
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,337
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkmannosoy View Post
Did they say if oceanvolt taught them the technique? Or was it just not used by everyone on the boat?
Dunno.

But if no-one onboard was monitoring power consumption versus charging, I gather more user orientation probably would have not gone astray.

It's very strange to me that this happened with such an experienced skipper. More sea trials would have been good, with new tech on a new (to him) boat. He probably had a lot to absorb, in a short time, and obviously he had expectations that were unrealistic.
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 21:49   #384
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Beijing
Posts: 718
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Not sure there is anything to solve. What are you referring to?
I mean instead of manually searching for the right throttle it would be done in software. So you have an auto mode as it is now and then a 'open ocean auto' mode for the situation described.

OV market their systems as pretty advanced and smart so the thought of this manual mode is not really inline with the sales pitch.

Probably the reason why we haven't heard of it until now.
Yihang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 22:14   #385
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,337
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yihang View Post
I mean instead of manually searching for the right throttle it would be done in software. So you have an auto mode as it is now and then a 'open ocean auto' mode for the situation described.

OV market their systems as pretty advanced and smart so the thought of this manual mode is not really inline with the sales pitch.

Probably the reason why we haven't heard of it until now.
OK, I see. Well, it may be ( speculation alert ) more complex and have more variables than can be accommodated by software. The specific RPM that works, for that install, would depend on prop type ( brand), size and pitch, and water flow variables, and maybe other factors I'm not aware of.

As it is, it's pretty easy. In manual when you're sailing along, with the throttle at OFF, there won't be much, if any, regen happening. Then you nudge the throttle in forward up until you see the regen value jump up. That will be about max. for the current boatspeed. If the boat speeds up in a gust, or downhill on a wave for example, the prop spins faster and there is corresponding more regen.
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 22:23   #386
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Beijing
Posts: 718
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
OK, I see. Well, it may be ( speculation alert ) more complex and have more variables than can be accommodated by software. The specific RPM that works, for that install, would depend on prop type ( brand), size and pitch, and water flow variables, and maybe other factors I'm not aware of.

As it is, it's pretty easy. In manual when you're sailing along, with the throttle at OFF, there won't be much, if any, regen happening. Then you nudge the throttle in forward up until you see the regen value jump up. That will be about max. for the current boatspeed. If the boat speeds up in a gust, or downhill on a wave for example, the prop spins faster and there is corresponding more regen.

Software love variables.....

In rough seas doesn't the variables change a lot? Wave action, surfing etc. Do you need to tweak it a lot?

I want OV to succeed, they have a sleek setup.
Yihang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 22:55   #387
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,337
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yihang View Post
Software love variables.....

In rough seas doesn't the variables change a lot? Wave action, surfing etc. Do you need to tweak it a lot?

I want OV to succeed, they have a sleek setup.
OV are already succeeding by the way....technically, they are way ahead of other EP vendors.

But on the software, sure improvement is always possible, but maybe the software development is not justified for a low volume product to just produce a "perfect" product. If an algorithm driven controller had to be re-configured for every combination of prop variables, for instance, it's maybe using a sledge hammer to crack a walnut solution.

The boats I've been on, one with Gori props one with Flexofolds, it was set and forget, there was no tweaking as we went along and boat speed changed. But maybe if the conditions changed significantly, it might need adjusting, I'm not sure.

It's a good question & I'll try and find out.
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2020, 23:10   #388
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

What would be great is if the software would "learn" that particular boat and setup, slowly getting better as more miles are done in different conditions.
jmh2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-12-2020, 00:42   #389
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 34,340
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Yeah, see, I like that.

There seem to be quite a few folks who have plenty of bucks and who want a boat with everything and every convenience they're used to in their condo back home (not speaking of J. Cornell, necessarily)

There is a guy on another thread who wants to tow his 23ft center console fishing boat behind his 50' sailboat.

There are quite a few guys (tech bros, mostly) who want to have 100gb Internet speeds and unlimited data anywhere on the ocean.

If you want to keep your 23' center console fishing boat, or you need to have unlimited data and ultimate speed Internet, or whatever land bound luxury you feel entitled to, keep your waterfront condo or SF apartment, and stay home.
Why is it a matter of "entitlement"?

People want what they want. It's an everyday basic function of life to balance what you want, with what is practically possible, and affordable.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to have your 23' fishing boat with you, or 100mps Internet, if that's what floats your boat. Whether you can have it or not is a different question. The 23' motorboat will fit on the after deck of many 80' to 90' sailboats. Or he can just scale it down a bit. Normal process of fitting desires to practical possibilities.

Likewise, with domestic equipment requiring a lot of electrical power. Nothing wrong with wanting to bake with electrical power. What is wrong is not figuring out how to supply the required amount of power.

When I started cruising with my father in the 80's on a 27' boat, the idea that someday I would want to have a washer and dryer on board my cruising boat would have seemed crazy. Well now I have it, and wouldn't want to live without it. I also have a built-in grill/microwave, and I do most of my cooking with induction. And I have a heavy duty 6.5kW generator and school bus alternator on the main engine, to produce the necessary power, which is NO problem. I've been unconnected to shore power for up to 3 months at a time, and it was NO problem.

Why would anyone want to have less comfort on board, than you would expect to have in a land home, if you have the practical chance to have it? Weight or cost or space usually require some compromises, but those are the only reasons I see not to have it. I usually live at least 3 months, and sometimes 6 months out of the year, on board my boat. I don't want to be camping if I don't have to be. There is nothing wrong with Jimmy wanting to have comforts of home. The only thing wrong is not having solved the problem of how to power it. He simply needed a generator, which he is now installing, or a much bigger solar installation, or better both. He just swallowed too much of the OceanVolt hype, that's all.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-12-2020, 02:01   #390
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2015
Boat: Hanse 531
Posts: 1,076
Images: 1
Re: Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

Why would anyone want to have less comfort on board, than you would expect to have in a land home, if you have the practical chance to have it? Weight or cost or space usually require some compromises, but those are the only reasons I see not to have it. I usually live at least 3 months, and sometimes 6 months out of the year, on board my boat. I don't want to be camping if I don't have to be. There is nothing wrong with Jimmy wanting to have comforts of home. The only thing wrong is not having solved the problem of how to power it. He simply needed a generator, which he is now installing, or a much bigger solar installation, or better both. He just swallowed too much of the OceanVolt hype, that's all.
As I understood it from talking to OV, it went the other way around. Their design and recommendation called for more power, but he wanted to go without a generator anyway.
__________________
Call me Mikael
nkdsailor.blog
mglonnro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
electric, grass

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
'World Cruising Routes' by Jimmy Cornell endoftheroad The Library 42 01-02-2022 17:22
Jimmy Cornell's Books from A&C Black Chetco Dollars & Cents 2 01-09-2008 07:20
Jimmy Cornell's Books Sonosailor The Library 0 08-01-2004 06:43

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:20.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.