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Old 01-02-2018, 08:11   #76
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by where.is.mike View Post
I know the skipper will not stand in my way if we come to differ on an argument as he is aware of the situation. Im more experienced at sea but i reasonably trust his judgement.
Be careful with this. There is a risk of trying to become a captain instead of the captain. If there are different alternatives and opinions, everyone should trust the captain to make the decisions, sometimes even against one's own opinion.

If the captain trusts your opinions, that's fine, but having multiple competing opinions and groupings in a boat in storm is a situation that you should avoid. If you are trying to learn to be a good captain and crew, better be careful in respecting this principle of having only one captain and a well working crew in the boat.

I'm not expecting things to go wrong, especially since you said that you trust on his judgement. I'm just noting that this is one potential pitfall where things might go wrong if you are not careful.
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Old 01-02-2018, 09:09   #77
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Re: Would you deliver her?

I cannot tell you what to do....

Only what I would .

1, We thoroughly inspect the vessel and that takes a several hours, and I would take it out sailing for a sea trial. I would know her seaworthiness, and her problems. And she will have some. Otherwise, I would not even consider it.

2, We would know the crew, and their abilities and knowledge of seaman ship and their dependability.

4. If they were like the crew and owner and skipper described here, ...we would decline, period. No hemming or hawing, or a second thought. None of our biz if they go our not, that is their decision.

5. And, can the newbies be trusted to stand a proper watch, since you are going to have to sleep and rest What happens when the weather and seas are knocking the hell out of the boat? Will they be able to function ?. Will they even be able to understand and follow commands.

6, This whole delivery of a boat that we did not know, nor have any knowledge of the systems, rigging, sails engine, or sea worthiness, would be a super red flag for me, and not a chance.

And, i have learned not to trust any boat owner, who tells me that his vessel is super condition, since 90% of the time, that is not factual.

We have been skippering boats, for personal fun, and professionally for , deliveries, and as a charter skipper , instructor etc for 35 year, A non seasoned crew on a boat that you know nothing about is a disaster waiting to happen.

The above is my own personal attitude that I have learned over many years and not necessarily will be the opinion of others. This is understandable.

But, I do have a very healthy respect about the power of mother nature. I have learned that the sea does not love me and can rise up and kick my okole . I cannot beat her down, but I can work with her on a well found vessel, and good seamanship and experience.

Also, one other thought......One thing not done seamanship wise on a boat, when a problem happens, that problem can magnify and multiply . That might be a possibility with an inexperienced crew.

After all of the ideas expressed here, It will be the choice of the OP, to do this delivery and that decision lies totally with him.

Should he decide to go on the delivery, wishing him and the crew, fair winds and a safe and pleasant passage.
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Old 01-02-2018, 18:24   #78
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Hi,

Lots of good thoughts here. I assume the boat has onboard GPS? That is so cheap these days I wouldnt leave harbour on any serious trip without it - mainly because if the owner is too mean to fit it, I wonder what else he has skimped on? PLUS a battery handheld.

Ditto with proper onboard AIS - at least a receiver. The reason for not having that is what, exactly...? If its to save £250 GBP then I would definitely walk. And there is no other possible (sane) reason...unless fog never happens where you sail..?

Radar - given the total running costs of a boat, a couple of thousand (GB) pounds saving versus not being able to see through fog any vessel not broadcasting an AIS signal (fishing vessels, small ships, warships, most leisure boats & yachts)... These days, any boat of any size going out of sight of land - why no radar?

I realise the Vikings didnt have GPS, Radar, VHF, etc etc, & neither did i in the seventies & eighties, but these days? I guess it depends what value you place on your life. This sort of kit just cuts out so much stress - 30 years ago I sailed across the shipping lanes, at night, in unpredicted thick fog, family on board, listening to the foghorns and the engines. Finding myself in that situation, I thought about it long and hard, then made a decision, kept broadcasting on VHF and we got away with it - but with hindsight, I'm pretty sure I would not do the same again. Even then, we had Decca. Anyway, never again. Its just not necessary now.

My main point is that I would worry about the overall maintenance and seaworthiness of any boat where the owner was cutting corners on this sort of basic kit.

Daytime marina hopping is one thing - sounds like your trip is not going to be like that. It could be mostly like that, of course, but that would take more time and cost more. Why aren't they planning to do that - to start with at least, as a shake down cruise on an unfamiliar boat while everyone beds down..?

Good luck.
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Old 01-02-2018, 21:03   #79
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Just do it, and bring a go pro
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Old 02-02-2018, 00:29   #80
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Just do it, and bring a go pro


Love your spirit!! Think i will.

But i only considered going after iíve had so much help and good advice from this thread. It made me think it was feasible if i take into account every detail mentioned, plus some others. You guys encouraged me to go forth with the planning, setting things straight with the skipper and crew and have a good, learning, and hopefully joyful sail?

If I consider at anytime to be at risk, i will jump ship. I wrote a document that states some of my conditions for boarding:

- I get a say in the passage planning.
- i get weather veto.
- i get to jump ship if safety is at risk.
- i get to jump ship if i feel that the crew is not ready for the west coast, or sail up with the skipper only.

The details that Boatman61 wrote were very sage and insightful, as were others like Ann. little things brought up, like mal de mer, micro management, hierarchy, current and unforgiving west coast will not be taken lightly on planning. Until S.Vicente lets hope for no sudden fogs and iíll have my final decision in PORTIMAO.

In the end i would feel comfortable if i was to deliver her by myself. So i guess unless the boat fails the checklist, or I canít work the crew out to keep a safe and happy boat, weíll be fine.

Meetings, then planning, then flying there and checking the boat out. Weíll see!
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Old 02-02-2018, 03:27   #81
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pirate Re: Would you deliver her?

Regarding fogs.. the only place I have experienced sea fogs on your proposed trip has been along the W coast of Portugal.. and that's usually been in the summer.
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Old 02-02-2018, 04:47   #82
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Don’t do it. For all the reasons already given by the others who told you not to. Read their posts again.

For a large crew of unexperienced people you need at least two very experienced people to “babysit” the former, and you don’t have those.

Based on the questions you’ve asked I know you don’t have enough experience yourself and you wisely acknowledge so by refussing to be the skipper. And since you’re the most experienced one...
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:05   #83
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Also, anybody who tells you that you can do it contingent on the weather forecast fails to realize that the forecasts for the Med are all too often wildly inacurate past 24h ahead, sometimes 12h. The Med is not the usual “cruel mistress” in the winter but an all-out batshit crazy bipolar psychopath. Well, ok, that’s somewhat exagerated but you catch my drift.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:19   #84
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pirate Re: Would you deliver her?

That's why I've advised him to take the weather apps with a pinch of salt and listen to the regular 4hourly local forecast and updates from the Spanish CG stations.. "All Ships.. All Ships.."
They cover each section of the coast all the way from the French border to the Portuguese border and based not only on meteorological office reports but on what's happening real time.. admittedly on occasion they can be half an hour late telling one they are going to be hit by a gale.. but they do tell you how strong and the probable length..
Portugal is where the dodgy apps will have to be used.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:20   #85
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by where.is.mike View Post
Love your spirit!! Think i will.

But i only considered going after iíve had so much help and good advice from this thread. It made me think it was feasible if i take into account every detail mentioned, plus some others. You guys encouraged me to go forth with the planning, setting things straight with the skipper and crew and have a good, learning, and hopefully joyful sail?

If I consider at anytime to be at risk, i will jump ship. I wrote a document that states some of my conditions for boarding:

- I get a say in the passage planning.
- i get weather veto.
- i get to jump ship if safety is at risk.
- i get to jump ship if i feel that the crew is not ready for the west coast, or sail up with the skipper only.

The details that Boatman61 wrote were very sage and insightful, as were others like Ann. little things brought up, like mal de mer, micro management, hierarchy, current and unforgiving west coast will not be taken lightly on planning. Until S.Vicente lets hope for no sudden fogs and iíll have my final decision in PORTIMAO.

In the end i would feel comfortable if i was to deliver her by myself. So i guess unless the boat fails the checklist, or I canít work the crew out to keep a safe and happy boat, weíll be fine.

Meetings, then planning, then flying there and checking the boat out. Weíll see!

I'm wondering....how do you plan to "jump ship" in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean?
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:03   #86
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Re: Would you deliver her?

WIM...
Had similar experience come my way many years ago....my gut said donít go but my ego told me to. I ended up being rescued with the rest of the crew by an ammunition ship heading across the Atlantic to Germany.

I thought I was good enough for all of it and was.... I am still alive and so is the rest of that crew. The boat failed us but the Epirb didnít work and the liferaft was too big for the few crew we had and were advised to stay aboard until the ship came close enough.

Who would believe an EPIRB wouldnít work? Life raft too big for the seas? Until you are climbing a ladder hung from the side of a 700 foot ship to be greeted by machine guns with your face and body comepletely covered in salt you really donít know what you are signing on for!

Your gut is telling you not to go, your ego as a man is telling you you can do anything and hell what an adventure right? Sitting on the deck of a sailboat with crew holding flares on the bow as a huge ship searches for you and you can see the Crew with binos looking for you but they canít see you or that flare..... that is when you really grasp how giant the sea is and the fact it will take you at any time itís ready.

I love to sail and the sea, but I have a profound respect for it that you do not. You havenít done what so many of these folks have done that are advising you. If you feel you shouldnít go...donít. You will get over it and live on to do it with someone that is a great teacher. That is good living and sailing and exploring. Secure as possible in the knowledge the crew can handle it.

Be smart and donít ask a group of people you never met what to do....these guys wonít be aboard with you. Use your head for something more than a hat rack
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:16   #87
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Re: Would you deliver her?

I can't tell you to go or not, or trust your gut or not. However, a healthy bit of caution is a good thing. It gets you thinking about the various possible scenarios. Since you are the one with the most experience, I would definitely get the captain to agree on the conditions you set forth. In addition, you should demand to bring along a second experienced crew member. That gives you someone to back you up should a disagreement with the captain happen. Plus, if conditions get dicey, you know there is someone there that can help you bring the vessel thru the situation safely and can stand watch for you when you have to sleep.
This captain needs you, so drive a hard bargain and don't let him convince you otherwise. Otherwise, don't go. I like the idea with of a test sail so you can assess the boat AND crew.
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Old 02-02-2018, 19:13   #88
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Unless you have confidence in at least two other crew stay home and practice your marlinespike seamanship. Another ride will come along soon.
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Old 03-02-2018, 01:22   #89
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Good Morning,
If the SY is under French flag, nobody needs to have a licence. Any one can be the skipper so long it's not professional cruise. So it is possible to have a less or unexperienced skipper and this probably why he is looking for experienced crew... In case a problem, specially with human injuries, french or other european authoryties will have a look on crew experience also, and if one show up more experienced, his responsaility could be involved even he isn't the skipper.
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Old 03-02-2018, 13:29   #90
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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I'd say go for it..
Lots of places to bail along the way.. and if they've not come together before St Vincent.. get him to drop you off at Portimao.
Test out your own crew building abilities.. you'll need em down the line.
In case I missed it.. when is the trip and what's the boat.. mono or cat.. how big.???
I think it must be a piece of junk - otherwise there'd be no more question -
where.is.mike - is it a piece of junk ?

Otherwise you just need 1 sailor on board who could get you home without engine or batteries.
Rough weather will subdue the crew.
Go for it.
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