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Old 31-01-2018, 03:17   #16
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by where.is.mike View Post
i get the feeling im being brought as a human liferaft, if you know what i mean.
No, I don't think I have any idea what you mean.
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Old 31-01-2018, 03:43   #17
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Winter weather in the med (ie getting to gibraltar) is highly localized, variable and can be quite nasty with little warning. If the skipper is that green i'd be double checking the weather forecasting, routing and departure dates....
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Old 31-01-2018, 05:25   #18
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Re: Would you deliver her?

There isn't a single section of this trip that is really offshore. Unless you are driven to make distance no matter what, then it's gravy.

If you stay out of the traffic lanes in Gibraltar, follow the tide, and sail by the weather, no problem to go. Don't underestimate the tide though, it's a solid 3 knots adverse and can make getting out of the straights a bitch.
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Old 31-01-2018, 06:30   #19
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Hi.. The trip itself is fairly straight forward even for this time of year.. just one stipulation.. don't encourage the skipper to be frugal with the engine.. poodling along at 3 to 4kts in light winds to save fuel when winds can suddenly develop in this area is not wise. Weather windows are all important so go when you can as fast as you can.
From the islands down to Cabo de Gato will have you experiencing mainly winds from Northerly directions..
From there to Gib the winds are either SW or Easterly with the rare S wind but I have had to motor from there t Gib more often than not due to lack of wind.
Once in the Straits or approaching you may get hit by W winds which can be 30kts or more.. duck into Gib to await the change back to the predominant Easterlies..
When you go through the Straits stick to the N side outside the shipping channels.. plenty of room and an easy passage.. as has been said.. work with the tide and leave Gib at least one hour before the turn to get in position for max use.
When you pass close to theTarifa entrance watch out for the high speed ferries going to Tangiers.. they are Cats and hit the throttle hard at the entrance then turn to stbd.. keep a lookout as you approach and you can just see their topsides as they leave their berths.. slow down if needed to let them pass before you.
You may also find winds F7 and over as you clear Tarifa.. dont sweat it as by the time you reach Trafalgar theyre easing down as the acceleration zone fades in the distance..
I would suggest using the anchorage at Portimao if you need to wait for a window round San Vincente where you turn North.
I dont know how far your going but up to Lisbon the wind is most often from the North.. some like to hug the coast and work their way up.. personally I prefer out and up.. like my searoom this time of year.
If your going past Lisbon be careful entering assumed shelter.. most ports are at river mouths and boats are lost every year on the bars.. local and transits.. if the swell is 3 to 4metres 5 plus miles offshore.. stay away and gain searoom..
Have a great trip..
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Old 31-01-2018, 06:43   #20
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Reading this, it doesn't sound like typical "you need respect for the sea and what it can do". This sounds like you really don't trust yourself and are scared. If you are scared and you are the most experienced, it sounds like the entire crew isn't prepared based on your assessment, so walk away.



Just not having Radar/AIS isn't something that should leave you scared. Is the boat otherwise in good shape? Are the crew able bodied with reasonable skill set? Or are there other issues, you haven't shared?



I assume you mean the Balearic Islands to Portugal, so there are bail out points along most of the route. You could always do shorter hops waiting for weather windows as a safer option. It doesn't eliminate the risk entirely but does reduce it. The coast of Portugal is the worst but if you stop and wait for a good weather window, you should be able to round the SW tip and make for Lisbon with a day or two of good forecast.



In the end, if you aren't comfortable, it's OK to walk away.


Thanks for the reply!!

Youíre right, i am concerned and a bit scared.

The more experienced i get, the more i worry about people that have no experience on board. I have skippered before and i take it as a serious commitment. Besides, and even with easy bailouts along my way up the west coast, i think big sea state can impose a challenge to be reckoned.

I would trust myself to sail a boat across singlehanded. But this time around...I donít know the boat and her history, I donít know my crew but i know theyíre green, I donít have any recognizable authority on board and, although it may sound stupid...it feels like they really have no clue about sailing.

Im playing it out with ease trying to access the risk against the fact that i have a lot of time and can plan for good weather windows.

I have a number of ďconsĒ for this passage but its a very good opportunity for me and im looking for all the best ways to reduce the risk and decide if itís worth it.
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Old 31-01-2018, 06:53   #21
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Hi.. The trip itself is fairly straight forward even for this time of year.. just one stipulation.. don't encourage the skipper to be frugal with the engine.. poodling along at 3 to 4kts in light winds to save fuel when winds can suddenly develop in this area is not wise. Weather windows are all important so go when you can as fast as you can.

From the islands down to Cabo de Gato will have you experiencing mainly winds from Northerly directions..

From there to Gib the winds are either SW or Easterly with the rare S wind but I have had to motor from there t Gib more often than not due to lack of wind.

Once in the Straits or approaching you may get hit by W winds which can be 30kts or more.. duck into Gib to await the change back to the predominant Easterlies..

When you go through the Straits stick to the N side outside the shipping channels.. plenty of room and an easy passage.. as has been said.. work with the tide and leave Gib at least one hour before the turn to get in position for max use.

When you pass close to theTarifa entrance watch out for the high speed ferries going to Tangiers.. they are Cats and hit the throttle hard at the entrance then turn to stbd.. keep a lookout as you approach and you can just see their topsides as they leave their berths.. slow down if needed to let them pass before you.

You may also find winds F7 and over as you clear Tarifa.. dont sweat it as by the time you reach Trafalgar theyre easing down as the acceleration zone fades in the distance..

I would suggest using the anchorage at Portimao if you need to wait for a window round San Vincente where you turn North.

I dont know how far your going but up to Lisbon the wind is most often from the North.. some like to hug the coast and work their way up.. personally I prefer out and up.. like my searoom this time of year.

If your going past Lisbon be careful entering assumed shelter.. most ports are at river mouths and boats are lost every year on the bars.. local and transits.. if the swell is 3 to 4metres 5 plus miles offshore.. stay away and gain searoom..

Have a great trip..


Thank you so much for taking the time!!
Great reply, itís gonna come in handy.

Hopefully itíll all work out as i plan to keep a somewhat conservative criteria on weather window!!
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Old 31-01-2018, 06:55   #22
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
There isn't a single section of this trip that is really offshore. Unless you are driven to make distance no matter what, then it's gravy.

If you stay out of the traffic lanes in Gibraltar, follow the tide, and sail by the weather, no problem to go. Don't underestimate the tide though, it's a solid 3 knots adverse and can make getting out of the straights a bitch.


Thank you for the reply!!
Hopefully itíll all work out and the weather will be fair to cross! If not, weíll just wait it out!
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Old 31-01-2018, 06:57   #23
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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No, I don't think I have any idea what you mean.


I mean...i get the feeling im being brought to bail the crew out if the sh*t hits the fan.
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Old 31-01-2018, 07:04   #24
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by where.is.mike View Post
Thanks for the reply!!

Youíre right, i am concerned and a bit scared.

The more experienced i get, the more i worry about people that have no experience on board. I have skippered before and i take it as a serious commitment. Besides, and even with easy bailouts along my way up the west coast, i think big sea state can impose a challenge to be reckoned.

I would trust myself to sail a boat across singlehanded. But this time around...I donít know the boat and her history, I donít know my crew but i know theyíre green, I donít have any recognizable authority on board and, although it may sound stupid...it feels like they really have no clue about sailing.

Im playing it out with ease trying to access the risk against the fact that i have a lot of time and can plan for good weather windows.

I have a number of ďconsĒ for this passage but its a very good opportunity for me and im looking for all the best ways to reduce the risk and decide if itís worth it.
Trust your gut and walk away. You have yet to provide one good reason to go but lots of bad ones. Adding radar is not going to mitigate a host of problems.
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Old 31-01-2018, 07:13   #25
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Trust your gut and walk away. You have yet to provide one good reason to go but lots of bad ones. Adding radar is not going to mitigate a host of problems.


Right you are.

I think i could easily weigh out most of the cons. What I canít seem to shake out is the gut feeling that this crew has no idea what theyíre getting themselves into...
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Old 31-01-2018, 07:13   #26
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by where.is.mike View Post
But from what I understand i think they’ll be very receptive to my suggestions.
I did what should have been a very simple delivery last month, with a captain that was supposedly seasoned (79-years old). In the weeks leading up to the trip he stressed that he wanted input from the crew, and wanted his ideas challenged - he didn't want yes men aboard. In actual fact he was not at all open to suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by where.is.mike View Post
What I don’t trust is a green skipper doing old school navigation, on a heavy traffic channel with great possibility of fog and an unskilled crew.
This distrust is what keeps you safe. The captain I described above turned out to have a fairly limited knowledge base, and exhibited both poor judgement and poor seamanship.

Risk factors become cumulative, and you have named four important ones. As we say in aviation, a crash is the last link in a chain of events - if you interrupt the chain anywhere, you prevent the crash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by where.is.mike View Post
And I can’t skipper the boat as my license doesn’t allow for some passages.
Licensing aside, go back to point #1 above, and realize you can't skipper the boat because you haven't been made the skipper (in title). Therefore, if someone wants to navigate a busy waterway without the necessary tools (I'm thinking a lookout, not radar), or force a departure into bad weather, or otherwise shows bad judgement, your options will be very limited. Folks with bad judgement may not recognize your good judgement.

I'd skip this one, and not give my decision a second thought. It's much better to be on land wishing you were at sea than to be at sea wishing you were on land. Listen to you gut. There will be other opportunities to build sea time.
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Old 31-01-2018, 07:15   #27
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Mike,
Seems like you've gotten some sage advice here. The electronics are nice to have, but sailed many years before Loran, GPS through heavy shipping lanes and here to talk about it.

Don't think I'd personally want to rely on iAIS. It's not always real time and your internet may not be reliable. Easier solution would be to set up a SDR dongle and get real time info. Unfortunately the range maybe only 1-2nm. The better option would be to spring for a better AIS that plugs into the mast head antenna to give a min. 20-30 nm range if this will give you piece of mind.

Hard to tell if you want to be talked into or out of going. Let's be real here, if the going gets tough, you'll most likely be in charge. We haven't met the crew, so you need to ask yourself if the dynamics are correct and if this would occur would the other skipper (on paper) step down gracefully. It would be like skippering the boat with the owner on board. Sometimes it works but many times ther's head butting.

If all this is a go (in your gut) and the boat is ready, go for it. It will be learning experience.

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Old 31-01-2018, 07:16   #28
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Hi, where is’... you are getting advice from seasoned and well respected skippers on CF like Boatman and JimCate as well as others.
I ran my own delivery business out of San Diego for many years and from the meager info you provided, I would be inclined to pass on the ‘delivery opportunity’. The lack of an experienced crew is the main reason along with no competent skipper makes it a deal breaker for me. Having spent many years working the commercial marine side, towing log booms, barges and commercial fishing, there have been many close calls caused by inexperienced skippers and crew. There are few places to turn out there for help, particularly when weather turns pear shaped.
Boatman has many years experience sailing the waters you are considering testing. My advice would be to talk the principles into trying to hire him to deliver the vessel and teach the rest of the crew how to handle the boat in adverse conditions.
Good luck on your decision... Phil
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Old 31-01-2018, 07:21   #29
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Mike,
Seems like you've gotten some sage advice here. The electronics are nice to have, but sailed many years before Loran, GPS through heavy shipping lanes and here to talk about it.

Don't think I'd personally want to rely on iAIS. It's not always real time and your internet may not be reliable. Easier solution would be to set up a SDR dongle and get real time info. Unfortunately the range maybe only 1-2nm. The better option would be to spring for a better AIS that plugs into the mast head antenna to give a min. 20-30 nm range if this will give you piece of mind.

Hard to tell if you want to be talked into or out of going. Let's be real here, if the going gets tough, you'll most likely be in charge. We haven't met the crew, so you need to ask yourself if the dynamics are correct and if this would occur would the other skipper (on paper) step down gracefully. It would be like skippering the boat with the owner on board. Sometimes it works but many times ther's head butting.

If all this is a go (in your gut) and the boat is ready, go for it. It will be learning experience.

Bill O.


Thanks bill,

Great advice.
Im not trying to get talked into going or staying. But hearing out the concerns and advice from more experienced sailors can help me to a better decision. As yours did.

So im trying to cover all angles, mitigate the risk to a minimum and get the best insight on what to expect and how to plan in advance to decide if itís worth it.
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Old 31-01-2018, 07:26   #30
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Make sure you trust the engine. Fuel reasonably fresh? Change filters and have spares.

Batteries good and charging system OK?

Then wait for weather. With a strong, experienced crew you can push through bad weather - but that's not what what you've got. It's winter so the wait for a good window may be longer than expected - maybe a week. Don't let the inexperienced skipper "go for it". Insist that you have a weather veto. And once out there, adjust your plans if the weather isn't what you expected.

And depending on lots of things, this trip could have just enough "offshore" that I'd carry an InReach for weather and two way communication with SAR. Even on other people's boats, I now always carry my own InReach when offshore.
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