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Polux · 07-01-2017, 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

....
ISIS is basically todays Inquisition.. just look at what Luther started and the wars and terror as a result.. sooner or later common humanity will prevail and a balance will be restored.

Some parallel there. The question is: Should they be allowed to rule themselves or not?

**boatman61** · 07-01-2017, 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Some parallel there. The question is: Should they be allowed to rule themselves or not?

Likely it'll follow the Catholic path and devolve to a small city state with myths of justice and beneficiary.. while the general following find their own paths over time..
I'm Protestant by birth.. but its a meaningless label.
A dog will foster kittens despite them being alleged foes by nature

robert sailor · 07-01-2017, 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

I agree that they have to be intelligent to be where they are but while Duterte is leading a policy that will end in not being a long time in power, Erdogan is leading one that will probably will make him a Turkish symbolic figure, the one that lead the country to some form of moderated Islamic government.

Not that I like what he is doing or aprove but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is what the majority of Turks think about it and regarding that I bet that on the next elections, maybe the last, his popularity as well as his power will increase exponentially, due to public support.

Regarding leading turkey to the stone age I assume you mean different from what we westerners consider that is appropriated for us? but don't you think that are the Turks that should decide what is appropriated for them? and that will be stone age? not for them surely, they will consider the new ways as a positive evolution, otherwise would not have supported it.

Well for once I am in complete agreement with you. Yes, the stone age is by Western standards as that's the only standard I have but there are parts of the USA that are not that far behind (joke mostly) I think every country or tribe gets to choose who they want to be.

sailpower · 07-01-2017, 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

No ISIS link.. apart from 'The Voices in his Head'

Not that it is conclusive but he was wearing a keffiyeh which would be a bit unusual for an Alaskan.

Suppose we will know at some point. Or not.

**boatman61** · 07-01-2017, 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailpower

Not that it is conclusive but he was wearing a keffiyeh which would be a bit unusual for an Alaskan.

Suppose we will know at some point. Or not.

I have and use a couple of Pathan Pakols..
That does not mean I'm a member of the Taliban or a Mujahideen.. nor influenced by ISIS come to that.. it just keeps my head warm in winter and does not blow off easily at sea.

sailpower · 07-01-2017, 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

I have and use a couple of Pathan Pakols..
That does not mean I'm a member of the Taliban or a Mujahideen.. nor influenced by ISIS come to that.. it just keeps my head warm in winter and does not blow off easily at sea.

Sure, hence my phrase, "Not that it is conclusive".

OTOH I doubt that you have ever walked into a law enforcement office claiming that ISIS was in your head?

We will see what information piles up and know when we know.

robert sailor · 07-01-2017, 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailpower

Sure, hence my phrase, "Not that it is conclusive".

OTOH I doubt that you have ever walked into a law enforcement office claiming that ISIS was in your head?

We will see what information piles up and know when we know.

He made a lot of claims including the CIA etc. Right now they are suggesting no ties to ISIS as they have checked his home computer. Just a buggered up soul. R

yeloya · 07-01-2017, 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Islam is going through a Reformation much as Christianity did centuries ago..
why the delay..??

Bingo..That's exactly the problem. The believers says that Islam is the last religion , everything is perfectly stated in the book and there is nothing to be reformed..(I am an atheist by the way)

Catholics were worse than muslims (inquisition tribunals..) before the
Renaissance but they've managed to reform themselves for the sake of science and culture while muslims have kept on banning the drawing for example. As a matter of fact, the arabs who were very develepped in astronomy, geometry, etc.. before the acceptance of islam have lost against Europe. Today most of the poorest countries in the world are islam countries. (leave a part Saudi and couple of oil rich emirates) Just a coincidance ?
Turkey (16 th biggest economy in the world) was an exception thanks to Atatürk who has seen this danger and claimed a secular state.

On the other hand, ISIS has nothing to do with being muslim. They are just simple, brainless, terrorists, cruel killers, bandits, period. There is nothing in Qu'ran that would justify what they do.

Cheers

Yeloya

Polux · 07-01-2017, 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

He made a lot of claims including the CIA etc. Right now they are suggesting no ties to ISIS as they have checked his home computer. Just a buggered up soul. R

That is the biggest problem.

He said he was wearing voices in the head, well some members of other religious say that they hear them too and call that the call of God. Some become priests. It seems that some now become terrorists.

I believe that if he had a keffiyeh and had a calling from ISIS, in is inner self we can say that he was doing ISIS work according to their principles but not mandated or directed by ISIS.

I say that is the biggest problem because these type of solitary attacks lead by fanatics but with no direct link to a terrorist cell are much harder to detect or to prevent.

Polux · 07-01-2017, 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeloya

Bingo..That's exactly the problem. The believers says that Islam is the last religion , everything is perfectly stated in the book and there is nothing to be reformed..(I am an atheist by the way)

Catholics were worse than muslims (inquisition tribunals..) before the
Renaissance but they've managed to reform themselves for the sake of science and culture while muslims have kept on banning the drawing for example. ...

That is basically the problem but what you call reforming religion was in fact, as Boatman had stated on his case, that most Europeans even if they say that they are Catholic or Protestants care very little about religion and even less about the Bible.

The basic diference here is that Muslim populations are still deeply religious and that means believers while Europeans are vaguely religious and non believers every time any Bible commandment goes against their good sense that is one informed by science.

For a religious man obviously it is good to be a believer and to be a believer is to assume some fundamentalism and do not contend with things that are on the book and are the word of good.

Bad or good, regarding having a religious society, it depends on the point of view and depends if someone is deeply religious or not. For someone deeply religious he is the one that is right and all the others the ones that have to be saved and brought to the true faith.

yeloya · 07-01-2017, 08:05

Well I think it's time to terminate this thread, at least as far as I am concerned.
We discussed archeology, right to be armed and finally religions.

Back to the subject, Turkey is safe (only as much as anywhere else) , at least for cruisers. All of you are invited to have free beer in our marina, if you choose to come to Marmaris..

Cheers

Yeloya

Elie · 07-01-2017, 08:09

Sailor fan said: 'Ok, this shows you have no idea whatsoever is going on here in the US.

First of all, the Ft. Lauderdale story is still developing, so we shall see soon enough what that situation is. So far, the fellow came in on a Canadian Air flight, and there is a great deal of controversy of his citizenship at this moment. That will of course change as time goes on and more details leak out, as they took him alive.

Second, there are dozens of place types that Americans cannot carry firearms into, to include most schools, churches, airports (in secured areas), and other public locations where populations are high (sporting venues, bars, and courtrooms/federal properties, etc.). The best way to ensure that someone gets ability to do what this guy did is to establish a "gun-free" zone where concealed carry citizens cannot carry their weapons in and defend themselves and those around them. In this case, the guy was in the baggage claim area, and hit people who were coming off inbound flights (thus unarmed because they cannot carry on planes). His gun and ammo were in his checked baggage, he retrieved the baggage, loaded his weapon, and opened fire on people gathering their bags.

Third, my money says he is ISIS inspired at the least. This is exactly the sort of attack that would be their style, aka "cowardly".

I think that now is is established that the Fort Lauderdale liller was a American, ex military, and very deranged person. Nothing to do with ISIS!.
I agree with Sailorfan that large area of rural America has some need and experience with firearms. And maybe a cultural thing.
But the lack of serious and real control of firearm in USA is unique in the civilized world. No other developped country is as liberal as America and it shows. In Montreal, for exemple there was 24 murders in total for 2016.Montréal has a population of over 2 millions persons. In Canada, this number is much less than 200 hundred I think. How that compares to any large US city? and to the US per capita rate of murder?.
Maybe the near impossility to obtain handguns and military type long guns , added to the fact that social coverage is much better, health care is free, I wonder if this has something to do with the low homicid level compared to what is experienced in USA.
IN fact Canada is not an exception, and all developped western countries have similar results. The argument of self defense to justify the right to carry arms is in my humble opinion the source of all the killing that occurs and points toward lawlessness and a subsequent police state behavior.

varkpilot · 07-01-2017, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Funny enough.. viewed from the outside in your (true) Republic you are indeed free to think what you want.. however unlike in a Democracy the minute you open your mouth your either arrested, beaten up or killed.. as demonstrated time and again just since WW2.. the Status Quo don't appreciate 'Free Speech'.. that's why Brexit happened and why the EU will end up a broken failed attempt at a Republic.. we The People wish to retain control of our country.. something a (true) Republic appears not to have..

Also.. my understanding was N America was for religious nutters and Rich tight fisted gits who object to paying taxes.. the F**k You Jack I'm Fireproof Brigade..

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought you were anti-American, Boatman. No matter. It certainly is your right to feel that way. I've been vocally and militarily supporting America much of my adult life and haven't been arrested, beaten up or killed yet. We had the advantage of being physically separated from most of the world in our early history and I believe that helped a lot. Religious nutters do exist here, as do myriad other forms of nutters. Most Americans ignore them as best we can and go on down the road. I also agree with the tax situation here. Definitely needs reforming as it's unfair. About the best you can say for it is that we're not paying 50% or more. Yet. I think most of us just want to be left in peace. For some reason the rest of the world seems to object to that. Guess that's why we have an undefeated military able to deal with them all. Cheers!

**boatman61** · 07-01-2017, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by varkpilot

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought you were anti-American, Boatman. No matter. It certainly is your right to feel that way. I've been vocally and militarily supporting America much of my adult life and haven't been arrested, beaten up or killed yet. We had the advantage of being physically separated from most of the world in our early history and I believe that helped a lot. Religious nutters do exist here, as do myriad other forms of nutters. Most Americans ignore them as best we can and go on down the road. I also agree with the tax situation here. Definitely needs reforming as it's unfair. About the best you can say for it is that we're not paying 50% or more. Yet. I think most of us just want to be left in peace. For some reason the rest of the world seems to object to that. Guess that's why we have an undefeated military able to deal with them all. Cheers!

This really gets me..

I've been labelled a Racist, a Bigot, anti Islamic, anti Christian.. Yada, Yada, Yada.. and anti American is not the first time
Someone in a Devon Pub accused me of that coz I said Disney World was Wank..

That's the trouble with Political Correctness and so called Liberalism..
If you don't agree with us your the enemy.. Sheesh.
I really don't care what folks consider me really..
I know I'm none of the above and so do those who know me, including quite a few Americans.
Now back to Devils Advocate.. depends on how you rate/quantify Undefeated..