Should A Non Eu Boat Sail Across The Atlantic To Sail The Med

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by BandB

Amazing how Schengen simplified things for the vast majority of travelers but sure complicated them for us.

That's the underlying issue. For 99% the Schengen is awesome. If you are doing a 2-4 week trip with 5 countries, it saved you a few hours dealing with border control.

As a long term cruiser, we just aren't part of the 99%.

[taildragerdrive]

I have watched most of this thread but unless I missed it I have not seen a discussion of what I have thought of doing.

I currently sail my boat from place to place for about 6 to 8 weeks of cruising. I then find a place to leave my boat and go back a few months later to cruise through another area I would like to see. (Last spring I did the northern Bahamas my boat is in Key West) I generally have that starting and ending point planned with the idea of cruising as long as it takes to do the leg. No absolute end date.

I met a fellow from Australia in the Bahamas who has a boat in Greece he purchased it there and goes back a couple of times a year to cruise in the Med and seemed to indicate there is no problem. He also felt it was a pretty affordable place to leave the boat.

If I understand correctly if I were to sail to Europe and stay for less than 90 days and stay away for at least 90 days, I'm not in violation of the immigration policies of the EU.

Is the above idea correct?

I'm guessing that I may have to pay the VAT tax at some point. Is that true even if I still have my boat registered as a US owned boat?

If so I believe it is a percentage of the value of the boat. What percentage?

If I pay the VAT tax is my boat then good to go anywhere in Europe for as long as I want?

I also understand it may be difficult to get a birth in some areas. Is that a big issue? If so could I plan ahead and find a birth before I depart on each leg as I do now?

Thanks

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by taildragerdrive

I have watched most of this thread but unless I missed it I have not seen a discussion of what I have thought of doing.

I currently sail my boat from place to place for about 6 to 8 weeks of cruising. I then find a place to leave my boat and go back a few months later to cruise through another area I would like to see. (Last spring I did the northern Bahamas my boat is in Key West) I generally have that starting and ending point planned with the idea of cruising as long as it takes to do the leg. No absolute end date.

I met a fellow from Australia in the Bahamas who has a boat in Greece he purchased it there and goes back a couple of times a year to cruise in the Med and seemed to indicate there is no problem. He also felt it was a pretty affordable place to leave the boat.

If I understand correctly if I were to sail to Europe and stay for less than 90 days and stay away for at least 90 days, I'm not in violation of the immigration policies of the EU.

Is the above idea correct?

I'm guessing that I may have to pay the VAT tax at some point. Is that true even if I still have my boat registered as a US owned boat?

If so I believe it is a percentage of the value of the boat. What percentage?

If I pay the VAT tax is my boat then good to go anywhere in Europe for as long as I want?

I also understand it may be difficult to get a birth in some areas. Is that a big issue? If so could I plan ahead and find a birth before I depart on each leg as I do now?

Thanks

Don't remember if this point was addressed in this thread but it was covered at some point in some thread on cruising Europe. As I understand it, the Schengen limit is on the person, not the boat. So the person gets 90 days total out of 180 days in the Schengen area. The boat I believe can stay up to 18 months before you are at risk of paying VAT.

So you could leave the boat in Europe, go home for three months and fly back for another 90 days to travel. Then every 18 months you have to take the boat out of the EU (not Schengen but the EU specifically, the two are not the same) to reset the VAT clock.

VAT I believe would be 16-21% depending on the country.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Don't remember if this point was addressed in this thread but it was covered at some point in some thread on cruising Europe. As I understand it, the Schengen limit is on the person, not the boat. So the person gets 90 days total out of 180 days in the Schengen area. The boat I believe can stay up to 18 months before you are at risk of paying VAT.

So you could leave the boat in Europe, go home for three months and fly back for another 90 days to travel. Then every 18 months you have to take the boat out of the EU (not Schengen but the EU specifically, the two are not the same) to reset the VAT clock.

VAT I believe would be 16-21% depending on the country.

Last I heard, you can actually get 24months with this senario if you put the boat in bond (?) to extend the 18 months. Unlike the schengen, you only have to prove the boat left and then returned to reset the clock. No 90 days out games. A much easier rule to complie with.

Also, does anyone still have a VAT below 20%? I believe the VAT rates have leveled out.

[chuckr]

[QUOTE=taildragerdrive;1568016]I have watched most of this thread but unless I missed it I have not seen a discussion of what I have thought of doing.

I currently sail my boat from place to place for about 6 to 8 weeks of cruising. I then find a place to leave my boat and go back a few months later to cruise through another area I would like to see. (Last spring I did the northern Bahamas my boat is in Key West) I generally have that starting and ending point planned with the idea of cruising as long as it takes to do the leg. No absolute end date.



the problem that you are not accounting for is the sailing season is shorter than the carib -- when we sailed the carib we could sail longer and just had to be out of the way of hurricanes and if in the western carib the entire coast of panama to colombia is open to you -

in the med the winters are a bit different and not likely to sail anywhere so you sailing season is say from may to late sept or early oct then you best be looking for a harbor to wait for the next season - so you get maybe 5-6 months or so -- so take 3 months in and 3 months out you see the problem

[Dauntlessny]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

That's the underlying issue. For 99% the Schengen is awesome. If you are doing a 2-4 week trip with 5 countries, it saved you a few hours dealing with border control.

As a long term cruiser, we just aren't part of the 99%.

Yes.
Thanks again n
My Dutch friend called me yesterday almost in tears after having spoken to the Netherlands people.

She learned the same thing we have been talking about, that at least for the Netherlands there is absolutely no proviso for cruisers. No retirement, cultural, spend money, or other visas.

Again, it does depend on where I make landfall, but basically, is either winter over on the UK, or possibly request a cultural visa for Norway.

Cost of leaving the boat and living on it is a big factor for me.

In the Netherlands I had found a Marina for $250 a month including electricity and water.

I need something like that.

Any ideas?

Ireland, Scotland, England?

Maybe Norway?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[savoir]

France, Italy and Spain all offer 6 month visas and you have to apply in person at your local consulate. All include the basic idea that you must prove your means of financial support. None say how much $$$$ they are looking for but it could be worth a try

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

Cost of leaving the boat and living on it is a big factor for me.

In the Netherlands I had found a Marina for $250 a month including electricity and water.

I need something like that.

Any ideas?

Ireland, Scotland, England?

Maybe Norway?

$250/month sounds pretty good. Maybe SW Ireland might for comparison. Rates over the winter are low and the Gulf Stream tends to keep the temperatures a little warmer. Check marinas in Bantry Bay or Fenit Harbor, Tralee.

Welcome to Fenit Harbour & Marina, Fenit, Tralee, Co. Kerry.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by savoir

France, Italy and Spain all offer 6 month visas and you have to apply in person at your local consulate. All include the basic idea that you must prove your means of financial support. None say how much $$$$ they are looking for but it could be worth a try

could you please provide a reference on this -- as it seems we are having trouble finding it -- in madrid we went to the national police and they told us to go to lisbon and get a residence visa - that was a maybe of course --

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by taildragerdrive

I have watched most of this thread but unless I missed it I have not seen a discussion of what I have thought of doing.

I currently sail my boat from place to place for about 6 to 8 weeks of cruising. I then find a place to leave my boat and go back a few months later to cruise through another area I would like to see. (Last spring I did the northern Bahamas my boat is in Key West) I generally have that starting and ending point planned with the idea of cruising as long as it takes to do the leg. No absolute end date.

I met a fellow from Australia in the Bahamas who has a boat in Greece he purchased it there and goes back a couple of times a year to cruise in the Med and seemed to indicate there is no problem. He also felt it was a pretty affordable place to leave the boat.

If I understand correctly if I were to sail to Europe and stay for less than 90 days and stay away for at least 90 days, I'm not in violation of the immigration policies of the EU.

Is the above idea correct?

I'm guessing that I may have to pay the VAT tax at some point. Is that true even if I still have my boat registered as a US owned boat?

If so I believe it is a percentage of the value of the boat. What percentage?

If I pay the VAT tax is my boat then good to go anywhere in Europe for as long as I want?

I also understand it may be difficult to get a birth in some areas. Is that a big issue? If so could I plan ahead and find a birth before I depart on each leg as I do now?

Thanks

Firstly , the " experiences of others" is not a reliable indication of either that ( a) the same will happen to you and (b) anything they say is actually law abiding.

For many years in many EU contries, foreign flag registered yachts were simply ignored for vat purposes, allowing foreign based owners the ability to fly in use their yacht and hence report " no problems ". The fact that technically they were in violation of vat laws was ignored as it wasn't enforced.

This is still the same way to day in many EU countries.

However, that doesn't mean that in your situation, you will " escape the lash ".

Temporary import relief ( TIR ) , allows a non EU established person to avail of 18 months relief from import VAT. That relief may be extended to 24 months with agreement by national officials. The 18 month relief needs no application and is merely claimed. There is no restrictions on using the vessel.

Note that this is not a bond ( 18 or 24 month) a bond is purely a national instrument to delay the payment of customs duties ( including vat ) it's arranged directly with local customs authorities and is purely national in nature. It's length of time, and other stipulations are purely at the discretion of national ( not EU ) laws.

TIR can be reset by leaving the " custom union of the EU " the time outside isn't specified so typically some proof is needed ( foreign marina receipt. Passport stamp etc ) again the onus is on the individual to justify.

Note the flag or registration of the boat is irrelevant for vat determination, it is the status of the beneficial owner that counts.

So in effect, yes if you abide by the Schengen limitations on your personally, and you never become " established" in the EU, then the VAT will in reality never become due, once you take some elementary precautions.

FYI, vat is charged on a vessel , in the country of destination " , which has been determined as the country where the boat is " habitually " kept. This is to avoid vat shopping. In practice, for yachts, you can use any country because oversight is light to non existent. Vat is paid on the agreed valuation, of the yacht, with the local national customs office ( officer ) you can apply normal capital depreciation rules etc.. I used to use Palma de Majorca as they would accept low( ish) valuations.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by chuckr

could you please provide a reference on this -- as it seems we are having trouble finding it -- in madrid we went to the national police and they told us to go to lisbon and get a residence visa - that was a maybe of course --

I spent a few hours on the internet and found on official government web sites for France, Spain, Italy and if I recall, a couple of other countries that listed 12 month extended visas. However when you read through the requirements actually getting one seems almost impossible.

This seems to be confirmed by another few hours I spent reading web sites and blogs from travelers and ex-pats who almost universally report their inability to secure a 12 month country specific visa. This applies just to extended tourist visas. Student visas, visas for family visits, and similar seemed pretty straightforward. Unfortunately I'm a bit old to pass for a college student.

Not saying it couldn't be done but it looks like much more than just filling in a few forms. One country required in addition to financial records, bank statements, etc. a legal background check, documentation of a clean arrest record and letter from your local police department attesting to your character.

If you figure out how to get over these hurdles do let us know.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by chuckr

could you please provide a reference on this -- as it seems we are having trouble finding it -- in madrid we went to the national police and they told us to go to lisbon and get a residence visa - that was a maybe of course --

You can't apply from inside Spain. You must apply at the Spanish consulate in your home country. Here is the application form in English and intended for US citizens.

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consula...NacionalEN.pdf

Here is the instruction page.

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consula...onWorkVisa.pdf

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by savoir

You can't apply from inside Spain. You must apply at the Spanish consulate in your home country. Here is the application form in English and intended for US citizens.

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consula...NacionalEN.pdf

Here is the instruction page.

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consula...onWorkVisa.pdf

savoir -- i assume you have opened and read these documents - maybe you can sit in ri and take time and do this -- we are actually full time cruisers - we have not even lived in the usa in the last 5 years - yes we have a po box in green cove springs but that is it - we may visit the usa for a couple of weeks to visit the kids - but take how many weeks - police backgournd check, fbi background check, ect ect -

you got to be kidding

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by skipmac

$250/month sounds pretty good. Maybe SW Ireland might for comparison. Rates over the winter are low and the Gulf Stream tends to keep the temperatures a little warmer. Check marinas in Bantry Bay or Fenit Harbor, Tralee.

Welcome to Fenit Harbour & Marina, Fenit, Tralee, Co. Kerry.

You could overwinter in the heart of Dublin for that type of money.

In smaller marinas in Ireland for the winter I say 250 for 6 months might be enough !!

Dave

[savoir]

You asked a question and I gave the answer - the correct one too. Don't blame me because you don't feel like making the effort to get what you want.

If anyone else is interested here is a sample of the requirements page for France.

Long stay visa for non professional purpose "visitor visa" - Consulat Général de France à Washington