Should A Non Eu Boat Sail Across The Atlantic To Sail The Med

[Dauntlessny]

A great discussion.
As I have been planning on taking Dauntless to Europe for years and now finally, I'm planning on doing it next month.

I have a marina in the Netherlands that is really inexpensive for Winter stay with me living on board.

But in looking at the visa issues, there is clearly a problem, though my Dutch friends are looking further into it for me.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

A great discussion.
As I have been planning on taking Dauntless to Europe for years and now finally, I'm planning on doing it next month.

I have a marina in the Netherlands that is really inexpensive for Winter stay with me living on board.

But in looking at the visa issues, there is clearly a problem, though my Dutch friends are looking further into it for me.

it looks like you are a usa boat and usa passport holder -- personally i would not bring the boat over -- not sure your intention of coming but if you want to see europe come over by plane and rent an rv

no issues with wx ect and camping appears to be abundent -- stay for 80 days or so and get out --

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

A great discussion.
As I have been planning on taking Dauntless to Europe for years and now finally, I'm planning on doing it next month.

I have a marina in the Netherlands that is really inexpensive for Winter stay with me living on board.

But in looking at the visa issues, there is clearly a problem, though my Dutch friends are looking further into it for me.

My understanding is that you can apply for a residence permit if you wish to stay longer than 90 days. I don't see a longer Visa as such. I have no idea of any implications such as VAT or other taxes. The best place to get information would be to call a Netherlands Embassy or Consulate.

Typically their concerns in reviewing an application will be proof you have funds to cover the time you're staying and your purpose in staying. They require some local registration, a TB test, possibly other requirements.

I'd just call and find out. Otherwise your choice is probably to alternately spend a period in the UK.

[Dauntlessny]

Thanks. Yes, that seems my best option. Spend three months in Norway, Denmark and Holland, then criss over to the U.K. gig the winter.

Not what I had planned, but maybe even better.

Let's keep in touch. I appreciate your advice.
Wxman22@gmail.com

Richard

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[jckb]

A couple of things have been glossed over in these discussions.

1. If you obtain an EU residence permit in order to stay longer within the Schengen region, either your boat must be VAT paid, or it must be declared on entry as part of the process of changing your normal home - when you're allowed to import all your personal possessions free of duty or VAT.

2. The Schengen region is planning an extended "tourist visa" for 2015, which will allow non-EU citizens of friendly nations (!) to make multi-country visits within the region over the period of a year.

More details and links to the relevant documents covering rules for non-EU yachts visiting Europe can be found at jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad

I'm afraid you can't see some of the useful "comments" added to that site unless you log in. Sorry about that.

JimB

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by jckb

A couple of things have been glossed over in these discussions.

1. If you obtain an EU residence permit in order to stay longer within the Schengen region, either your boat must be VAT paid, or it must be declared on entry as part of the process of changing your normal home - when you're allowed to import all your personal possessions free of duty or VAT.

2. The Schengen region is planning an extended "tourist visa" for 2015, which will allow non-EU citizens of friendly nations (!) to make multi-country visits within the region over the period of a year.

More details and links to the relevant documents covering rules for non-EU yachts visiting Europe can be found at jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad

I'm afraid you can't see some of the useful "comments" added to that site unless you log in. Sorry about that.

JimB

Hi Jim,

First, thanks for the contributions and the excellent web site. Planning an EU cruise in a year or three and have spent a good bit of time researching on jimbsail.

Not sure how far your expertise extends in this area but since you mention EU taxes I have a question.

If by chance one does obtain a long stay visa or temporary resident permit and becomes potentially liable for EU taxes (ignoring for now VAT issues), what income would be taxable? If for example, I am retired and collect social security and investment income only from the US is this taxable in the EU? What if I work for a US company by email and phone while in the EU but all income earned and paid from the US. Would this be taxable in the EU? If any of this income is taxable does the EU allow credit against taxes paid in another country?

Any additional comments or suggestions on this?

Thanks
Skip

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Hi Jim,

SNIP
Not sure how far your expertise extends in this area but since you mention EU taxes I have a question.

If by chance one does obtain a long stay visa or temporary resident permit and becomes potentially liable for EU taxes (ignoring for now VAT issues), what income would be taxable? If for example, I am retired and collect social security and investment income only from the US is this taxable in the EU? What if I work for a US company by email and phone while in the EU but all income earned and paid from the US. Would this be taxable in the EU? If any of this income is taxable does the EU allow credit against taxes paid in another country?

Any additional comments or suggestions on this?

Thanks
Skip

There is no such thing as "EU taxes". You are referring to income taxes, which are completely different in each EU member state. They are not even "harmonized", whatever that means in practice

If you have specific countries in mind then I suggest you first look up if there are treaties between the US and that country. If there is a treaty it will tell you what country gets to tax each bit of income at what rate. You can get some nice summaries from the big-4 tax firms. Most importantly, if the euro country is the one that gets to tax the specific bit of income, the US will let you take credit for income tax paid to almost any country, short of North Korea, Cuba, etc.

If there is not treaty then basic tax law of both countries applies and if they both want to tax something they will usually let you choose one of the countries to take credit for the tax paid to the other one. Once again, the big 4 tax firms have nice little summaries they put together for expats that get their tax advice paid by employers. Look for "Doing business in XXX" with XXXX being the country in question. Many countries will want to tax your global salary, div and interest income while you are a resident there. UK is way more generous with "UK resident but non UK -domiciled" ( as in Russinan pluteaucrats that buy soccer teams or Wall Street expats working in London); it will let you off divs, interest and salary provided you handle them in a certain way. With pensions is a bit less clear.

Most importantly, for a US person who is not drawing a salary it may end up being a wash except for the odd country where the tax rate on specific bracket of specific income is higher than the US federal rate.

I can help with specifics if the country is the UK; but I understand that you may be looking for sunnier places.

Cheers

C

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

There is no such thing as "EU taxes". You are referring to income taxes, which are completely different in each EU member state. They are not even "harmonized", whatever that means in practice

If you have specific countries in mind then I suggest you first look up if there are treaties between the US and that country. If there is a treaty it will tell you what country gets to tax each bit of income at what rate. You can get some nice summaries from the big-4 tax firms. Most importantly, if the euro country is the one that gets to tax the specific bit of income, the US will let you take credit for income tax paid to almost any country, short of North Korea, Cuba, etc.

If there is not treaty then basic tax law of both countries applies and if they both want to tax something they will usually let you choose one of the countries to take credit for the tax paid to the other one. Once again, the big 4 tax firms have nice little summaries they put together for expats that get their tax advice paid by employers. Look for "Doing business in XXX" with XXXX being the country in question. Many countries will want to tax your global salary, div and interest income while you are a resident there. UK is way more generous with "UK resident but non UK -domiciled" ( as in Russinan pluteaucrats that buy soccer teams or Wall Street expats working in London); it will let you off divs, interest and salary provided you handle them in a certain way. With pensions is a bit less clear.

Most importantly, for a US person who is not drawing a salary it may end up being a wash except for the odd country where the tax rate on specific bracket of specific income is higher than the US federal rate.

I can help with specifics if the country is the UK; but I understand that you may be looking for sunnier places.

Cheers

C

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I didn't phrase my question very well. I do understand that there is not an EU tax and that policies vary by country (I export products customers across Europe and am painfully aware of that little detail).

Would have been much more correct to ask about taxes in specific EU countries and looking at a UK option is not out of the question. Do really enjoy visiting the UK and plan to spend time there as well. I think it obvious that the point of the question is how to spend a couple of years in that part of the world without running afoul of the Schengen limits.

I do know lots of cruisers who have stayed for a year or more and no one ever asked or cared. My cousin is married to a captain on a large Feadship that stays in the Med for years and they never have any problem (but then the rich do seem to get away with a lot of things ). However, with my luck I would run into a zealous bureaucrat whose wife ran away with an American sailor and is looking for revenge.

So far the options I can see are: to periodically dash across the Med, occasionally hole up in the UK or to hide out in some dodgy spot in North Africa for three months out of every six.

Three months in western EU followed by three months in the UK would work with Schengen but this schedule would put me crossing the Bay of Biscay late in the year on the way to the Med. Not a good idea I think.

The dash across the Med presents other issues. Haven't experienced Med weather yet but from what I'm learning, if I'm in the western Med and have to quickly exit to somewhere on the eastern end to reset my Schengen clock I will alternate between motoring in a calm and reefed down in a gale.

That leaves stop overs in N Africa but things are a bit unsettled at the moment. I'm thinking the best option in the Med might be some combination of plan B and plan C.

Overall I should be able to make it work but would involve a bit of inconvenience or occasional long trips on short schedule. The longer tourist visa that is being considered sure would make the logistics easier.

[jckb]

Thanks for the nice comment! Your tax question has been answered already.

Tunisia is pretty stable at the moment by N African standards. See https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/tunisia . UK package holiday companies are operating normally along the eastern coastline, and they chicken out quite early as soon as above average threats arise. So it's a viable destination, and interesting, too.

While it's reasonable to say "In the Med, the wind is either on or off", that's actually making a comparison with the coasts around England and N France, where winds of various strengths are fairly neatly spread across the spectrum. Or the trade wind belt, where it never stops to give you a breather!

In the Med, high terrain interferes with what might have been a reasonable F5, making it F3 on one side of an island, but F7 on the other (and anything between downwind).

But (aside from the big winter lows and their related toxic thunderstorms and typhoons) the big winds live in predictable areas, while certain pockets (W Italian coast, the Greek Ionian, the Greek Saronic, SE Turkey) have light summer winds - and are rich with charter companies!

[chuckr]

for those who said the usa is the same -- our south african friends just got 6 months in the usa -- and that makes sense as it would be a problems tell boaters they must leave and head south in the middle of hurricane season --
so it is not the same

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by jckb

A couple of things have been glossed over in these discussions.



2. The Schengen region is planning an extended "tourist visa" for 2015, which will allow non-EU citizens of friendly nations (!) to make multi-country visits within the region over the period of a year.

More details and links to the relevant documents covering rules for non-EU yachts visiting Europe can be found at jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad

I'm afraid you can't see some of the useful "comments" added to that site unless you log in. Sorry about that.

JimB

JimB -- it would be nice if the extended visa would come about - but being the EU i will not hold my breath on that one -- i will believe it when i see it

any time one gov't is involved it can be a bit of a mess but when a lot of gov'ts get involved it is cluster something (the admiral came up with that one)

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by jckb

Tunisia is pretty stable at the moment by N African standards. See https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/tunisia . UK package holiday companies are operating normally along the eastern coastline, and they chicken out quite early as soon as above average threats arise. So it's a viable destination, and interesting, too.

I have seen a number of reports on various forums and web sites like noonsite, that Tunisia is still a safe destination in N Africa. So am slowly evolving a plan to deal the 90 day limit. Start in W Europe and use most of my 90 Schengen days. Then spend as much time as possible in UK and Ireland before it gets too late in the year and crossing the Bay of Biscay becomes problematic.

Then I have to dash south then east with the ultimate goal of reaching the eastern Med to stay long enough to reset the Schengen clock.

If I save a few of my 90 days could stop occasionally in a Schengen country on the way but plan on Gibraltar and Tunisia for longer layovers if needed for repairs or to wait for a weather window. Next stop the Balkans and finally Turkey and perhaps side trips to Cyprus and Israel until I get another 90 Schengen days. Then back east and spend a season in the Med.

Originally Posted by jckb

While it's reasonable to say "In the Med, the wind is either on or off", that's actually making a comparison with the coasts around England and N France, where winds of various strengths are fairly neatly spread across the spectrum. Or the trade wind belt, where it never stops to give you a breather!

In the Med, high terrain interferes with what might have been a reasonable F5, making it F3 on one side of an island, but F7 on the other (and anything between downwind).

But (aside from the big winter lows and their related toxic thunderstorms and typhoons) the big winds live in predictable areas, while certain pockets (W Italian coast, the Greek Ionian, the Greek Saronic, SE Turkey) have light summer winds - and are rich with charter companies!

Problem is, if I follow the plan outlined I will spend the summer months in NW Europe leaving the winter months to cross the Med. Not sure if last winter was typical but I watched the weather in the Med pretty closely for a few months and it looked like every few days a Mistral came busting in with gale force winds that sometimes impacted the weather as far as the toe of Italy. Add a few other seasonal winds it looks interesting trying to cover 2000 miles from Gibraltar to the eastern Med without getting slammed a few times.

More ideas and suggestions welcome.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I have seen a number of reports on various forums and web sites like noonsite, that Tunisia is still a safe destination in N Africa. So am slowly evolving a plan to deal the 90 day limit. Start in W Europe and use most of my 90 Schengen days. Then spend as much time as possible in UK and Ireland before it gets too late in the year and crossing the Bay of Biscay becomes problematic.

Then I have to dash south then east with the ultimate goal of reaching the eastern Med to stay long enough to reset the Schengen clock.

If I save a few of my 90 days could stop occasionally in a Schengen country on the way but plan on Gibraltar and Tunisia for longer layovers if needed for repairs or to wait for a weather window. Next stop the Balkans and finally Turkey and perhaps side trips to Cyprus and Israel until I get another 90 Schengen days. Then back east and spend a season in the Med.



Problem is, if I follow the plan outlined I will spend the summer months in NW Europe leaving the winter months to cross the Med. Not sure if last winter was typical but I watched the weather in the Med pretty closely for a few months and it looked like every few days a Mistral came busting in with gale force winds that sometimes impacted the weather as far as the toe of Italy. Add a few other seasonal winds it looks interesting trying to cover 2000 miles from Gibraltar to the eastern Med without getting slammed a few times.

More ideas and suggestions welcome.

Winter med gales will hand you your arse on a plate. Best avoided.

Dave

[savoir]

Originally Posted by chuckr

for those who said the usa is the same -- our south african friends just got 6 months in the usa -- and that makes sense as it would be a problems tell boaters they must leave and head south in the middle of hurricane season --
so it is not the same

A 6 month US visa is easy to get. The only drawback is that you have to attend a US consulate in person to apply. No internet.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I have seen a number of reports on various forums and web sites like noonsite, that Tunisia is still a safe destination in N Africa. So am slowly evolving a plan to deal the 90 day limit. Start in W Europe and use most of my 90 Schengen days. Then spend as much time as possible in UK and Ireland before it gets too late in the year and crossing the Bay of Biscay becomes problematic.

Problem is, if I follow the plan outlined I will spend the summer months in NW Europe leaving the winter months to cross the Med. Not sure if last winter was typical but I watched the weather in the Med pretty closely for a few months and it looked like every few days a Mistral came busting in with gale force winds that sometimes impacted the weather as far as the toe of Italy. Add a few other seasonal winds it looks interesting trying to cover 2000 miles from Gibraltar to the eastern Med without getting slammed a few times.

More ideas and suggestions welcome.

first - Tunisia is an incredbly great place and really really safe - we spent last winter there and decided to go back for a second winter instead of going to turkey -- we really like it

second -- as above the winter gales in the med are lengendary -- it is not just one year it has been for a a few thousand -- read the Bible -- 27th chapter of the book of Acts about a ship wreck story of paul -- it is a great shipwreck story and things have not changed since there -- there is a reason the med sailors sit for the winter

third - why the heck the rush?? why are you coming if you want to run from gib to turkey and back - my gosh you will miss italy, balerics, spain, ect - but as above if you really want to see them fly over and rent a motor home - much easier quicker and you get see more and not worry about the wx