Should A Non Eu Boat Sail Across The Atlantic To Sail The Med

[su2014]

my girlfriend bought some knock-off purses in istanbul that were better quality than original i figure. a real shoppers paradice that place was.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by dlymn

Be careful about overstaying the 90 days. Most officials along the Med coast pay no attention to the Schengen requirements BUT it is not rare for customs at the airport to count the days just as you are flying out. Getting "parole" stamped in your passport means that you have to make written application to the EU to reenter even to get you boat out. Permission might not always be granted.
In a region surrounded by people desperate to get permanent residency anywhere in the EU and with no-one checking your passport or no need for visas within it, it makes sense to have some sort of check on how long non-EUs stay. It's a shame you are not a New Zealander; the rules are different for them.

Sugarbaby -- read the above carefully -- and the first posting on this thread. We are here and we count days carefully. We wintered over in Tunisia and then sailed up to Sardinia, over to Rome then down the Italian coast and across the boot to Albania and used 65 of our 90 days. By the way the Italian CG in Ortanto did count days but the police, who matter, did not.
We have a few days left so we will probably visit Venice by train and save our last days for a turn back down the Italian coast to Sciliy and cross over to Tunisia for another winter.
I am not sure why you want to bring your boat over but it is easier and you can see and explore a lot more and probably cheaper by renting a camper van and not have the worries of wx, ports ect.
We did meet some guys from Aussie land who are traveling inland and not by boat and had a bit of a go with some authorities on the Schengren issue and managed to find a way to get stamped out in an out of the way location late at night and into Russia or so they said.
Really examine why you want your boat here.

[kas_1611]

Having read through this thread I must add one very important point that we discovered last year while Croatia was in the process of joining the EU.

As we were UK flagged but not VAT paid under the EU Sailaway scheme we knew that we would become liable for VAT at 25% once Croatia joined the EU. We looked into reregistering in Gibraltar and Isle of Man but discovered that as we are EU citizen it does not matter where the vessel is flagged it would be liable for full VAT anywhere in the EU. In the end the Croat authorities offered us a deal we could not ignore and now we fly a Croatian flag.

Therefore anyone who holds dual citizenship with an EU nation will fail into the same category regardless of where your normal country of residence may be. Dual citizenship does not get you out of national compulsions such as national service etc so do not expect it to get you out of paying taxes either.

However that said if your boat is over about 8 years old I believe then it may be deemed as zero rated for VAT so it might be worth actually physically importing it in to the EU. Only proviso then is it must return to the EU within 3 years to maintain its EU VAT status but this would allow a non EU citizen to bounce across the Med from one side to the other thereby avoiding the Schengen 90 day limit as much as possible.

Given the complexities of the situation the best advice would be to seek legal advice and not rely on anything you read here. "Ignorance of the law is no defence" as they say.

Keiron

ps Croatia is not part of the Schengen accords yet, the sailing is great, the people welcoming and the winds reliable (in the main)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

In the end the Croat authorities offered us a deal we could not ignore and now we fly a Croatian flag.

If you don't mind sharing, what kind of deal did they offer?

If we could simply pay $2-3k up front and have VAT taken care of, that would be a great option. We can leave the boat as long as we want and they get some extra tax income. But if they want $20-30k, it makes jumping thru the hoops to legally avoid VAT much more enticing.

[kas_1611]

Valhalla,

Sadly you had to have your boat in Croat waters and reregister before 31st May last year to benefit from the special deal.

If you do want to import into the EU then I suggest Malta as it has the lowest rate of VAT throughout the EU at around 10% I believe.

Cheers

Keiron

[savoir]

Malta's general VAT rate is 18%. I've never heard of an exemption for boats.

[kas_1611]

Luxembourg has the lowest Standard Rate at 15% followed by Malta at 18% and Cyprus and Germany at 19%. These are the lowest standard rates in the EU but some countries may apply a lower rate to private vessels if they see fit.

Again if your vessel is over a certain age (last time I checked it was 8 years) it may be deemed "zero" rated for VAT on importation.

Keiron

[boatman61]

Azores is second at 16%..
There are a few US folk amongst others who's boats are based there either in Horta, Faial, or Praia Vitoria, Terceira.. believe there's good links from Terceira to the US by air due to the base there.. but could be wrong..
Europe's but a week's sail or less away

[kas_1611]

Standard rate in the Azores is actually 18% as a special rate as the Azores are a part of Portugal and included within the greater EU zone, unlike the Canaries, the Channel Islands and Gibraltar.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Standard rate in the Azores is actually 18% as a special rate as the Azores are a part of Portugal and included within the greater EU zone, unlike the Canaries, the Channel Islands and Gibraltar.

True.. a result of the 'Crisis'..
But.. before that it was 15% and that's what I paid on a 2001 Bene I brought over in '07.. $60K worked out to just over £3.5K in VAT dues.. reckon you'd be billed at 16% as the revenue is appreciated out there

It was just a thought..

[jckb]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

We looked into reregistering in Gibraltar and Isle of Man but discovered that as we are EU citizen it does not matter where the vessel is flagged it would be liable for full VAT anywhere in the EU.

It's not citizenship, which determines whether or not you can use a boat which is not VAT paid, it's your normal place of residence. So EU citizens who have emigrated, but maintained their citizenship, can temporarily import and use a non-VAT paid boat. However, having said that, proving that your normal place of residence is not in the EU, when you present an EU passport, is not straightforward!

However that said if your boat is over about 8 years old I believe then it may be deemed as zero rated for VAT so it might be worth actually physically importing it in to the EU.

Errm. No. Various EU countries introduced VAT at different times. If boats were already resident in a country when VAT was introduced, they were deemed "VAT paid".

All this material is covered on this JimBsail web site page

On that page you'll also find a link to HMRC Notice 8, which gives you the UK interpretation of the EU regs on importing boats. Different countries do read the rules in varying ways, as do different officials. So yes. expect the un-expected!

Separate subject; VAT rates. The best way to minimise VAT on importing a boat is to choose an entry country which is very lenient on boat valuation.

[valhalla360]

I think most have settled in right around the 20% range to eliminate shopping around for the best VAT.

My question was related to assessing the value of the boat which could easily vary by 50-100% (or as someone suggested an older boat may simply be valued at $0, which I suspect may not be correct or you would see a flood of older boats being imported as they don't have to pay VAT.)

[chuckr]

One really good option is to move your Croatia boats to Marina Orikum in Albania. we have been here almost a month and there is a good floating docks, water, electricity, excellent showers and head, helpful staff on getting in and out, and not that expensive and no VAT.

It is not that far from Croatia and closer yet to Greece for the summer sailing season.

if you need more contact Luigi Di Vito at marinaorikum@hotmail.it or call him at 393402907773

and no i get nothing out of this. We love and had a great time in Albania and believe it is totally missed as a great place, with great people and very inexpensive to visit and travel.

[EllesBelles]

We are (maybe were if Schengen is too restrictive) planning to sail east to the Med for next summer. We wanted to return with the ARC, which means waiting until November, however we can't figure out how this will work with Schengen restrictions (we had wanted to sail east in May or June at the latest for weather and safety).
And now we've learned that Croatia is trying to get into Schengen by July 2015. We had planned to spend a considerable time in Croatia and Montenegro, and just 90 days in Schengen countries. Now we don't see how that's going to be possible, and consequently, are thinking of skipping going to the Med altogether.
Does anyone have any suggestions? solutions? ideas?
It seems very shortsighted of the EU to make these rules that could keep them from receiving all the Euros that we and others like us would have spent into their economy.
Are we missing something?

[SVAspen]

We started out last year, in July of 2013, in Turkey and checked into the EU in Greece in the middle of August. Then it was 3 months of beating across the Med to Gibraltar. We skipped Croatia because of the strong winds that come from the continent and costs there while staying south to Sicily and points west.

At the beginning of October we made sure we sailed south (to avoid headwinds later in October) to the Canaries and joined the ARC - what a fantastic experience that Rally is!

We had exited the Med just at the end of our 90 days in Euro Land but overstayed once we were in the Canaries waiting for the ARC to leave. In the Canaries the Spanish officials could care less about Schengen and we got our exit stamp without any problems at all.

Would we skip the Med with our boat, knowing what we know now? Well, the culture in the Med is fantastic with Turkey being the highlight of our voyage. Touring on land is well worth the effort. But the sailing pretty much sucks because of the adverse and strong winds and steep seas that rarely diminish during the summer sailing season.

Joining the ARC made us appreciate sailing once again and making landfall on St. Lucia after crossing the Atlantic was a highlight of our voyage.

If I were going over to the Med I would use my 90 days in the EU by sailing to Turkey to get out of the EU before 90 days, put the boat in storage for the winter in Turkey and then sail back across to the Caribbean the following year.

Of course the choice is yours to make. Good luck with your decision!

Originally Posted by EllesBelles

We are (maybe were if Schengen is too restrictive) planning to sail east to the Med for next summer. We wanted to return with the ARC, which means waiting until November, however we can't figure out how this will work with Schengen restrictions (we had wanted to sail east in May or June at the latest for weather and safety).
And now we've learned that Croatia is trying to get into Schengen by July 2015. We had planned to spend a considerable time in Croatia and Montenegro, and just 90 days in Schengen countries. Now we don't see how that's going to be possible, and consequently, are thinking of skipping going to the Med altogether.
Does anyone have any suggestions? solutions? ideas?
It seems very shortsighted of the EU to make these rules that could keep them from receiving all the Euros that we and others like us would have spent into their economy.
Are we missing something?