Should A Non Eu Boat Sail Across The Atlantic To Sail The Med

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

I'm looking forward to ireland at this point.



Waterford looks good, inexpensive and close to the center of town. the only downside is that I want to be able to leave a few times during the six months.



Is Dublin that much more expensive?? Would it be worth my while, (more things to do, people, airport direct to NY) or would Waterford be more accommodating in the long run??

Waterford is in expensive and has the advantage of having the marina virtually on the city centre , with all amenities within walking distance. Good train and bus services to Dublin ( 100 miles ), generally it has the best climate in Ireland. ( within the usual climate )

Dublin is significantly more expensive , bit you have the advantages of a capital city, with its fantastic pub culture etc. The closest toe that typically have availability are dunlaoghaire ( dunleary ) or malahide , each is some distance away from centre of Dublin , but served by good commuter rail services. Dunlaoghaire is particular well served with a good shopping centre within 5 mins walking distance , cinema etc.

Why is it a downside that you want to leave a few times during the winter.

Dave

[Dauntlessny]

Thanks guys,

That really helps. I really like to be able to walk to town centre. Also, the bus ride to Dublin occasionally would be interesting.

Cheap flights to Manchester is also a plus.

Now, I must have to get there.



Sent from my SCH-I605 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Hadjiosif]

I have both US and EU passports and my boat is US flagged. I know I can stay but what rules apply to the boat while in EU? Thanks
Lee

[Prairie Chicken]

Hadjiosef, search the VAT threads. Short story, a non-EU boat may only stay 18 months in the EU before being subject to vat. But, a short departure from the EU resets the clock.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Hadjiosif

I have both US and EU passports and my boat is US flagged. I know I can stay but what rules apply to the boat while in EU? Thanks
Lee

The answer varies from "liable to VAT at first port in EU VAT territory" to "you can import the boat free of VAT and even sell it some time later as VAT-paid even if you never paid it".

In order to provide a more precise answer we need to know more about your residence ("establishment") whereabouts before and after the boat arrives in EU VAT territory, the boats history (VAT payment, sales inside or outside EU, etc), if the boat has a CE plate (ie compliant with RCD).

If you can send some info and specific questions after you read th eolder threads we can start a new thread on that.....

Cheers

C

[Hadjiosif]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

The answer varies from "liable to VAT at first port in EU VAT territory" to "you can import the boat free of VAT and even sell it some time later as VAT-paid even if you never paid it".

In order to provide a more precise answer we need to know more about your residence ("establishment") whereabouts before and after the boat arrives in EU VAT territory, the boats history (VAT payment, sales inside or outside EU, etc), if the boat has a CE plate (ie compliant with RCD).

If you can send some info and specific questions after you read th eolder threads we can start a new thread on that.....

Cheers

C

Carlos, Thanks for the info. More specifically, I'm permanent resident of the US but now that I'm retired I want to spend 2-3 years in Cyprus. (i have a US and CY passports). Cyprus is in EU but not part of the Schegren agreement. I paid the US equivalent to VAT (sales tax) when i bought the boat sown on the bill of sale from the broker. I don't know what the CE plate is. It's a Beneteau 381 made in the US to French specifications. I can easily take the boat to Israel or Turkey for a few days, if that's all it takes to meet the time in country limitation.
And how about transiting the Med from Portugal to Spain, Italy, Greece etc...and staying for a few days in each. would I have to pay cruising fees for each country?
Thanks to all that reply and I will also be looking for crew for early Spring 2015 for this trip.
Lee

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Hadjiosif

I'm retired I want to spend 2-3 years in Cyprus. (i have a US and CY passports). Cyprus is in EU but not part of the Schegren agreement.

We will go one step at a time.

I am not familar with the status of Cyprus in the EU but will assume it a "normal" member.

I will also assume that not only you have US citizenship but also you actually have lived there for several years, still live there and do not "live" in Europe under any reasonable definition (VAT, income tax, etc).

Now I can think of two possible plans:

A) (Not preferred for you?) Boat: Enter the EU with the 18-month VAT "Temporary Importation" VAT/duty relief for "tourists who are not established in the EU" (aka art 561 and 562.e). Person: You go into Cyprus/EU as a "tourist", but make sure you do not meet any definition of "living in Cyprus" later because that would trigger VAT liability on the boat. That may be a bit tricky given your stated objectives.

B) (Preferred for you?) Person: You use your right to "move" to anywhere in the EU, in particular to a country in the EU that abides by the supposedly EU-wide harmonized VAT principle that gives "Transfer of Residence Relief" aka TOR for duty and for VAT) from duty (see arts 2-10 of Council Reg 918/83) and VAT (see Directive 83/181) to people who move there. The lovely UK is one such place, hopefully Cyprus is another.

Under TOR you will "permanently import" the boat in to the EU. This will require a CE plate (see sample in attachment; maybe you have one in your boat´s cockpit already) that you can get from Beneteau USA is you ask very politely (been there, done that; call +1 843 629 5320 or email marie dot clemons at beneteauusa dot com).

Here is the detail of option B if you chose to move to the UK:

"You don’t pay VAT or duty on vehicles imported from outside the EU if you qualify for transfer of residence relief. To qualify you must meet all of these conditions:
• you’re moving your normal home to the UK
• your normal home was outside the EU for a continuous period of at least 12 months
• you’ve owned and used the vehicle for at least 6 months outside the EU
• you didn’t get the vehicle under a duty or tax-free scheme
• you’re going to keep the vehicle for your personal use for at least 12 months
To get the relief, fill in form form C104A and give it to Customs when you enter the country."

Gory detail available at

https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicle...outside-the-eu

Yo may also want to read VAT and Your Boat

You just need to find the supposedly similar TOR rules in Cyprus (which are basically part of the rules that would let you bring to Cyprus over your bed, sofa, books, clothes, Ford Mustang, Harley Davidson, etc, free of duty and VAT.. Alternatively, you could move to the UK first for a while, hope the weather is not too bad and Cyprus will later take the UK´s C104a form as good.

On a detail, note that you would need to apply for TOR relief from your "moving to" country before arriving in the EU but you can go through other EU countries before arriving in your "moving to" country.

Of course, in option B you would likely end up subject to all sorts of Cyprus taxes, but you should be able to claim credit for most income taxes in your US return.

Cheers

C

[su2014]

Originally Posted by mhazlett

My wife and I are US citizens and cruisers in our third year in the Med and have had no regrets. We are in Turkey and hold residency permits, which can be obtained for up to five year periods without the tax, application and other issues raised by residency in most Schengen countries. All of North Africa, the Middle East, including Tunisia and Israel, and around to Turkey are non-Schengen. Last summer leaving Turkey by boat we spent time in three non-Schengen countries, Croatia (although as an EU member it is supposed to join at some future point), Montenegro and Albania as well as 88 days in Greece before returning to Marmaris. In an earlier year, we spent a considerable period in Gibraltar where Spain can be entered without a passport stamp—indeed we could not get our passports stamped even when we later sailed into Spain. As best I could determine Gibraltar did not impose a time limit on US boats, although as an overseas territory of the UK I suspect a six month limit is supposed to apply. Morocco of course is also non-Schengen. We have several friends from the US who have spent nearly a decade based in Turkey without problem. The best cruising in the Med is clearly in the eastern Med where Schengen is not the problem it is in Italy and France. I have seen a number of American cruisers write blog laments about cruising in the Med without getting to the eastern Med. A good source on Schengen is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area . It is also important to note that Schengen applies to the people not the vessel and that Americans, Canadians, Aussies, South Africans, South Americans, and citizens of most other countries outside Europe are subject to the same or worse rules. Kiwis get the benefit of special bilateral agreements permitting longer stays in a number of Schengen countries. There is an unrelated VAT issue for the vessel at 18 months in the EU but that is easily addressed by a short trip out of the EU. Sv Pua’ena, Marmaris, Turkey

great post. i am contemplating moving from base in bahamas to turkey next year. what can i expect to pay for marina slip for 65 ft.thanx

[su2014]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Waterford is in expensive and has the advantage of having the marina virtually on the city centre , with all amenities within walking distance. Good train and bus services to Dublin ( 100 miles ), generally it has the best climate in Ireland. ( within the usual climate )

Dublin is significantly more expensive , bit you have the advantages of a capital city, with its fantastic pub culture etc. The closest toe that typically have availability are dunlaoghaire ( dunleary ) or malahide , each is some distance away from centre of Dublin , but served by good commuter rail services. Dunlaoghaire is particular well served with a good shopping centre within 5 mins walking distance , cinema etc.

Why is it a downside that you want to leave a few times during the winter.

Dave

do you have any info on what marinas in turkey are expensive or a deal? thanx

[su2014]

Originally Posted by sugarbaby-dot-c

great post. i am contemplating moving from base in bahamas to turkey next year. what can i expect to pay for marina slip for 65 ft.thanx

heard under 500 euros for 5xnstar service in turkey

[Hadjiosif]

Carlos,
Thank you very much for all the good information. I'll try to get the Cyprus version of Form C104A. And yes, I do have the CE plate in the cockpit.
Lee

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sugarbaby-dot-c

do you have any info on what marinas in turkey are expensive or a deal? thanx

Not for long term stays , no

Dave

[Celestial Don]

Check out Marmaris Yacht Marin

[dlymn]

Be careful about overstaying the 90 days. Most officials along the Med coast pay no attention to the Schengen requirements BUT it is not rare for customs at the airport to count the days just as you are flying out. Getting "parole" stamped in your passport means that you have to make written application to the EU to reenter even to get you boat out. Permission might not always be granted.
In a region surrounded by people desperate to get permanent residency anywhere in the EU and with no-one checking your passport or no need for visas within it, it makes sense to have some sort of check on how long non-EUs stay. It's a shame you are not a New Zealander; the rules are different for them.

[su2014]

thanks for the info "celestial don". like your handle as mine is only a joke. was in istanbul 2 years ago and curious about the marina expansion there as well. ordered a "dominoes pizza" to the dock while there and shared it with customs. great place i figured to return to. found out later that there is an old underground city in turkey later near syria. hope to explore and leave my footprints there some time in the futere. thanks "celestial don" for the quik answer.fairwinds and godspeed.