Schengen Overstay

[Barra]

Originally Posted by double u

"...still be over the stupid 90 ..."

as in 14years of cruising (18years abroad altogether) we were hassled by various visa-, immigration- & other regulations a considerable number of times, I would be very much obliged if all non-EC/Maastrich/whatever-citizens would abstain from using derogatory terms for "our" regulations until they have verified that said regs in their country of origin are "cleverer" & more "cruiserfriendly". thank you!

Im sure you know how the rest of the world works as a visitor but if you havnt faced the schengen fiasco as a long term visitor then spare a thought for your fellow cruisers as it really is in a world of its own -

It has organically grown to cover more countries over time but keeps the 90 days in 180 thus effectively allowing less time over a greater area. ie you effectively get 4 days per country if you want to visit them all.

Thats way out of sync with pretty much everywhere and is just plain stupid. It prevents even land based tourists travelling to lesser known parts as they are on a tight clock. Places like Paris get the visit, more out of the way places miss out on the tourist $ that they could really use.

Most places are 90 days or 180 days but with easy resets if you either leave and return or apply for an extension. This allows an official to check up on whether they still want you ie still have funds, not commited crimes, not working etc. Not so schengen. In schengen its assumed if you have stayed 90 days you have run out of money or some other kind of problem Ie guilty till proven innocent.

There are no straightforward exceptions allowed for common sense of a border official to come into play. (effectively the more relaxed officials at ports vs airports is a tacit nod to this but it is technically illegal)

This is also just plain stupid.

So sorry if this offends but really I think you should stop and think about how out of sync the schengen zone has become in practice especially for those that have more time and more money to spend on their tourism industry than the average tourist.

[boatman61]

Double u..
If your expecting the majority of the membership to admit that.. Dream On.. most have not a clue..

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Barra

Im sure you know how the rest of the world works as a visitor but if you havnt faced the schengen fiasco as a long term visitor then spare a thought for your fellow cruisers as it really is in a world of its own -

It has organically grown to cover more countries over time but keeps the 90 days in 180 thus effectively allowing less time over a greater area. ie you effectively get 4 days per country if you want to visit them all.

Thats way out of sync with pretty much everywhere and is just plain stupid. It prevents even land based tourists travelling to lesser known parts as they are on a tight clock. Places like Paris get the visit, more out of the way places miss out on the tourist $ that they could really use.

Most places are 90 days or 180 days but with easy resets if you either leave and return or apply for an extension. This allows an official to check up on whether they still want you ie still have funds, not commited crimes, not working etc. Not so schengen. In schengen its assumed if you have stayed 90 days you have run out of money or some other kind of problem Ie guilty till proven innocent.

There are no straightforward exceptions allowed for common sense of a border official to come into play. (effectively the more relaxed officials at ports vs airports is a tacit nod to this but it is technically illegal)

This is also just plain stupid.

So sorry if this offends but really I think you should stop and think about how out of sync the schengen zone has become in practice especially for those that have more time and more money to spend on their tourism industry than the average tourist.

Dude,

There are easy work arounds and several welcoming countries like Italy, Croatia, Montenegro, UK and Spain. No need to worry, no need to hurry.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=URnAM8FzZ10

[Tricolor]

Originally Posted by Barra

...................This is also just plain stupid.

So sorry if this offends but really I think you should stop and think about how out of sync the schengen zone has become in practice especially for those that have more time and more money to spend on their tourism industry than the average tourist........

Stupid or clever...

To spend all your money in our countries you will now visit us more then ones.. and these clever rules gives us a 3 month break to spend your money, every body happy..

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Dude,

There are easy work arounds and several welcoming countries like Italy, Croatia, Montenegro, UK and Spain. No need to worry, no need to hurry.

Lol I thought you had linked a guide to visa workarounds haha.

Dont worry im not stressed about it but it IS STUPID especially from a sailing perspective when you consider the milage Ill cover from Greece to Canaries all under one visa supposedly.

My issue is the time ill spend in western med and particularly canaries so montenegro etc doesnt help me this time. By the time Ive cruised from Greece, even with all the tricks of the trade ill be well over the 90 days and have no time for canaries left.

The italian and spanish long stay visas want a permanent address ie buy / rent a villa and since i know ill be moving from Greece west that seems to be the issue for sailing visa candidates.

Hence the post - has anyone tried the long stay visas from a sailing boat (not a villa rental)...?

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Tricolor

Stupid or clever...

To spend all your money in our countries you will now visit us more then ones..

no still stupid. More visits = more money spent on airfares = less spent on hotels, restaurants, museums etc.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by double u

"...still be over the stupid 90 ..."

as in 14years of cruising (18years abroad altogether) we were hassled by various visa-, immigration- & other regulations a considerable number of times, I would be very much obliged if all non-EC/Maastrich/whatever-citizens would abstain from using derogatory terms for "our" regulations until they have verified that said regs in their country of origin are "cleverer" & more "cruiserfriendly". thank you!

I don't really understand the logic of this. What does the stupidity of the rules in my own, non-EU country have to do with the stupidity of any rules in Europe? These things are not connected.

Putting aside the word "stupid" for a moment -- the Schengen visa system has some glaring and obvious defects, which are extremely frustrating for long-term travelers like, especially, us cruisers. Unlike visa systems almost everywhere else in the world, which (a) allow you six months per country and at a time, under any visa waiver program; and (b) give you some way of getting a one year multiple entry visa in case you are on a long-term trip, the Schengen system does not provide any reasonable way to travel long-term in Europe. That people would call this "stupid" seems entirely reasonable to me, as it seriously harms tourism in Europe and makes the continent extremely hard to access for long-term travelers.

The 90 in 180 is stupid because it is gross overkill, in two ways: First of all, people don't become residents by universal standards of this, by staying 91 days. It's 183 days in a given year. Second, Europe is not one country, so 179 days in Germany and then 179 days in France does not constitute legal residency in either country, and 46 days in Germany and 46 days in France sure as hell does not.

Then to compound this -- stupidity -- there is no way out of the situation with what you can get in any normal country, which is a one year multiple entry visa, which you get by simply proving that you are not a deadbeat but merely a traveler, with insurance, and with adequate means to avoid ending up being a ward of the state, and with no indication that you are trying to become a resident by stealth, or seeking illegal employment.

This is colossally stupid -- there really isn't any other word for it, and I don't see why anyone should be offended by someone saying so.

You Brits will be facing the same thing soon, by the way.


We have some even more stupid visa policies in the U.S. -- for example, a PhD in computer engineering from India -- a person bringing immense economic benefit to the country -- may find it harder to get a green card than an illiterate refugee from Somalia with no skills, but with an aunt in Peoria. But this has nothing to do with anything. We should be PAYING anyone with an advanced degree to immigrate to the U.S.; we should be RECRUITING them, not torturing them with bureaucracy. But that is an entirely different question.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Barra

It has organically grown to cover more countries over time but keeps the 90 days in 180 thus effectively allowing less time over a greater area. ie you effectively get 4 days per country if you want to visit them all.

How many days do I get per state in the US?

When I travel to Australia I can go for 3 months in a 12 month period. And that is for an area that is bigger than the Schengen area, where we give Australians 90 days in 180...

So, while it has, granted, issues, the Schengen treaty is not disproportionately cumbersome for the majority of tourists....

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Ssullan

We spent the last four years in the Med. We learned a couple of things:

1. Not to confuse the Mastrich Treaty with the Schengen Treaty. Mastrich applies to property, Schengen to people (that may be a vast simplification, but it worked for me).

2. Mastrich says you cannot have your boat in the Eurozone...

You've got a few things wrong.

First it's "Maastricht". The people of that fine thank you for spelling the name of their town correctly :-)

Secondly, Eurozone has nothing to do with VAT. The Eurozone is the zone where the Euro is the common currency. And there are also countries not officially part of the Eurozone where they use the Euro anyway. (Monte Negro is a case relevant to cruisers).

For VAT purposes the relevant geographical are is the "Customs Territory of the Union". And that is a different beast altogether.

You can read here what comprises the customs territory of the union:
Customs - European Commission

Interestingly this means that one should be able to reset the VAT clock on Helgoland, as well as at Ceuto are Mililla. All three part are of the Eurozone however...

The UK is part of the Customs Territory (as a EU member) but not part of the Eurozone.
Monaco is not part of the EU, but is part of the Eurozone, and part of the Customs Territory...

Europe is complicated...

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

How many days do I get per state in the US?

When I travel to Australia I can go for 3 months in a 12 month period. And that is for an area that is bigger than the Schengen area, where we give Australians 90 days in 180...

So, while it has, granted, issues, the Schengen treaty is not disproportionately cumbersome for the majority of tourists....

Not at all correct........

It is true that you can only stay for 3 months in one visit, but at the end of that stay you can take a budget airline flight to NZ, Bali, Fiji and then return to Aus for another 3 months. You can repeat doing this up until the last day of your 12 month visa and when you arrive in Aus on the last day, you will get another 3 months...

That's just the standard 12 month eVisitor visa. There is another visitor visa which you can get up to 12 a months continuous stay.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

How many days do I get per state in the US?

When I travel to Australia I can go for 3 months in a 12 month period. And that is for an area that is bigger than the Schengen area, where we give Australians 90 days in 180...

So, while it has, granted, issues, the Schengen treaty is not disproportionately cumbersome for the majority of tourists....

In the U.S., you get "Leave to Enter for Six Months", and like in the UK, you can leave for one day and come back and get another six months. I am presuming that you are a Swiss citizen. Furthermore, you can get a one-year or three-year B1/B2 visa which lets you come and go as you please -- cruise, or drive a camper van around the U.S. aimlessly for three years -- no problem.

I am putting aside the fact that U.S. states are mere provinces with less status than the Cantons of Switzerland, and in no way comparable to the nations of Europe.


"Issues" is the understatement of the year. Schengen is a mess. The deviation from normal visa practice for long term travelers is just bizarre. I don't know of any place in the world, where it is so hard to be a long term traveler. Even Russia and China are easier -- far easier.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by double u

"...still be over the stupid 90 ..."

as in 14years of cruising (18years abroad altogether) we were hassled by various visa-, immigration- & other regulations a considerable number of times, I would be very much obliged if all non-EC/Maastrich/whatever-citizens would abstain from using derogatory terms for "our" regulations until they have verified that said regs in their country of origin are "cleverer" & more "cruiserfriendly". thank you!

OUR Schengen visa rules are stupid and clearly created by dumb arse Eurocrats who spend their whole time with their head up their own arse in Brussels and are too stupid to understand the loss of tourist income such ridiculous visa restrictions have on Schengen states. It's not just yachties who are affected by the 90 day rules


My other "our" was posted above.. Much much much more reasonable rules even if the immigration officers at airports act a bit like pricks at times

Aussie & Swedish passports here

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Not at all correct........

It is true that you can only stay for 3 months in one visit, but at the end of that stay you can take a budget airline flight to NZ, Bali, Fiji and then return to Aus for another 3 months. You can repeat doing this up until the last day of your 12 month visa and when you arrive in Aus on the last day, you will get another 3 months...

That's just the standard 12 month eVisitor visa. There is another visitor visa which you can get up to 12 a months continuous stay.

The information I have contradicts that. With an eVisitor its "3 months within 12 months". No resetting by flying to Bali as far as I can see.

[valhalla360]

The fundamental problem is some folks think it's the "United States of Europe" and others think its a group of loosely affiliated but independent countries.


Those who think the first set up regulations based on the EU being a single country. Those who don't treat the regulations as if they are separate countries and can enforce them the way they want.
Ultimately you could go to court to prove your rights but for the average guy just wanting to cruise the med for a couple years, it's not worth the trouble.


To the original question: if you are on a tight schedule and want to stay legitimate, you need to hang out in non-Schengen countries and then make sprints thru the Schengen area to keep your days for where you need them...or take your chances, you might get away with it or you might get fines and told to leave immediately.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

"Issues" is the understatement of the year. Schengen is a mess. The deviation from normal visa practice for long term travelers is just bizarre. I don't know of any place in the world, where it is so hard to be a long term traveler. Even Russia and China are easier -- far easier.

The Schengen treaty was drafted to solve a real problem. How do we profit from the increased prosperity in countries like India of China without instituting visa free travel for nationals of those countries?

An Indian couple going on their honeymoon to Europe wants to visit Paris, Switzerland and Venice. Imagine if they had to apply to three embassies for three visa... Imagine they wanted to see more countries.

This is why Switzerland is part of the Schengen treaty btw. To many Indian honeymooning couples discovering (the hard way) that the Paris - Venice night train passes through Switzerland. And we want them to stop here and enjoy the scenery.

For the majority of tourists Schengen is a good thing, and improved things massively. For a small minority its a hassle. But remember that before Schengen you could not get a visa that allowed long stays in the whole of Europe either...