Schengen Overstay

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Days at sea (or achorages hint, hint) don't count towards Schengen.

Montenegro, Albania and Croatia are outside of Schengen

Italy doesn't care how long you stay, just keep spending those tourist euros.

Contact me privately via PM if you want more details on how to legally stay in the EU longer.

Hi Ken!

I hope you are right but be careful with that. How can the days on anchorage not count? You do the entry papers on a country and all the time after you do the out papers will count, being you sailing or on anchorage.

If you are anchored and the coast guard inspects you, if you have not entry papers on that country, you can be in trouble.

My experience with Italy and I have several years of it, is that they can be extremely careless (most of the time) or they can be very strict to the point of being ridiculous.

Don't forget that they are the only country that I know off that has not only a coast guard but a Guardia da Finanza, with 600 boats for "
investigating and reporting financial evasions and violations, overseeing the compliance with the provisions of politico-economic interest and surveillance at sea for financial police purposes ..."

Play safe and be sure everything is alright

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by DawnTreader

Checked out of Santa Cruz de La Palma, Canaries this year with a few days to spare on my 90 days. I asked if I could go to La Gomera to wait for weather for the passage to Cape Verde. The very nice immigration official said sure, but that I had to be out in 1 week. This is the same official who 2 years prior said sure and gave no particular time I needed to be gone.

Brian
www.sailingdawntreader.com

this is not great news --

[robert sailor]

It is relatively easy to overstay your 90 days when fooling around on a boat because you can go from country to country and no one is checking however that all changes when you get on an aircraft because customs is looking at and stamping your passport.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by Aden

Just out of interest, where do you find this Schengen/Immigration information? Is it for Non-EU citizen? It would be good to know about this before we plan our sailing journey.

These immigration and customs matters are dealt with in some detail at Time Abroad | JimB Sail

You'll find in that text lots of links to original information sources.

Scott's (Ssullan) summary was very good. Yes, indeed, when in Rome . . .

I'm just preparing an addendum to that page warning European visitors to the US about the hazards of arriving in the US by private boat without a valid visa in your passport . . . you're just ordered to leave US waters immediately . . .

JimB

[yachtagent]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Days at sea (or achorages hint, hint) don't count towards Schengen.

Montenegro, Albania and Croatia are outside of Schengen

Italy doesn't care how long you stay, just keep spending those tourist euros.

Contact me privately via PM if you want more details on how to legally stay in the EU longer.

Day at sea counts as well as anchorages.
Croatia is part of EU but not jet of Schengen

[Moontide]

I saw a report a few months ago that they were going to change the rules so tourists could stay longer. Does anyone know if this is still in the works?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by yachtagent

Day at sea counts as well as anchorages.
Croatia is part of EU but not jet of Schengen

No, days at sea don't count according to border officials. But do as you please and I'll do the same.

Simply traveling between Italy, Croatia and Montenegro one can stay in the Med Indefinitely.... legally and without penalties. All within the Adriatic.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Moontide

I saw a report a few months ago that they were going to change the rules so tourists could stay longer. Does anyone know if this is still in the works?

I think a certain mob of (religious) refo's have stuffed that little bit of legislation.

[ErikFinn]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

No, days at sea don't count according to border officials. But do as you please and I'll do the same.

Simply traveling between Italy, Croatia and Montenegro one can stay in the Med Indefinitely.... legally and without penalties. All within the Adriatic.

Bit off topic but since the above popped out, can you anchor out or must stay in marinas over there?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ssullan

We spent the last four years in the Med. We learned a couple of things:

1. Not to confuse the Mastrich Treaty with the Schengen Treaty. Mastrich applies to property, Schengen to people (that may be a vast simplification, but it worked for me).

2. Mastrich says you cannot have your boat in the Eurozone (as a non-Eurozone citizen) for more than 18 consecutive months. You can reset the Mastrich clock by leaving for 24 hours, checking in to a non-Mastrich treaty country and then checking back out and then back in. Of course, no one recommends the 24 hour approach, it is too risky. At least a month would be preferable. You can also bond your boat out while it is on the hard, but it takes careful documentation and having customs on board to lead seal the helm from moving for the duration of the stay. At the end they give you a letter stamped with the certifications that allow you to not to count the time on the hard against the 18 months. The Mastrich is actually the one with financial teeth. If customs finds that you overstayed the time, they hit your boat with the VAT of 23% of the boat's value (which they determine without an immediate right of appeal on the spot). So, the authorities are very interested in identifying boats that are subject to the tax and in enforcing it. We were accosted at the dock in Calvi, Corsica by 3 French customs officials. It was pretty intense. Only after 90 minutes of laying down document after document did they concede that I had not violated the Mastrich limits. It was pretty obvious that they wanted to hit me with the tax, but just could not. For some reason, the bonding letter from Sardinia was the ace card for us. No idea why as we were not over the limit either way.

3. The Schengen says that you, as a person, cannot stay in the Eurozone more than 90 days in any 6 month ROLLING period of time. So it is not 90 days related to any calendar event and you CANNOT reset it by simply leaving the Eurozone and returning without staying out the required time to reduce your rolling total to less than 90 days. Pick any 6 months before or after your consecutive stays in the Eurozone and if your time exceeds that you are an illegal alien. The authorities can, if they choose, immediately expel you, they can, and have, written on passports that one was an illegal immigrant, not to return. And just "losing" the passport and getting a new one does not fix the issue as it is in the system. If one violates this law, it is possible that one will not be able to return to that country without a Visa in the future. It was a constant nagging issue for us, and I did worry that I might be kicked out without warning -- leaving my boat at a marina without me for a prolonged period of time. When we first got to the Med, the northern countries (Germany and England) were strict, but no one in the south really cared. But the Syrian refugee crisis changed all that. Everyone got much much more serious in 2015 and is much more serious now Being a cruising sailor is not an excuse for a violation.

4. Rule number one is that you have 90 days in any rolling 6 month period under Schengen. Rule number two is there is nothing you can do to change rule number one.

5. We might think these laws to be "ridiculous", but they are the backbone of the European Union (ask the Brexit folks about that) and they were negotiated for a reason. It was not for us to say why or whether we agreed. When in Rome, ......

Scott
s/v Robin

This is a superb summary!

and if you read it together with this:

Originally Posted by Polux

. . . My experience with Italy and I have several years of it, is that they can be extremely careless (most of the time) or they can be very strict to the point of being ridiculous.

Don't forget that they are the only country that I know off that has not only a coast guard but a Guardia da Finanza, with 600 boats for "
investigating and reporting financial evasions and violations, overseeing the compliance with the provisions of politico-economic interest and surveillance at sea for financial police purposes ..."

Play safe and be sure everything is alright

You will get a pretty clear picture of the whole situation.


From the point of view of Yanks and probably many other non-Europeans:

There is nothing like what we understand as consistency and coherence, in the way these rules are enforced.

Not just in Italy, but all over Europe, you will find extreme carelessness most of the time, punctuated with occasional episodes of extremely punctilious, aggressive, and extremely harsh enforcement. There is no coherency at all in the way the rules are interpreted, even in the same country, much less Europe-wide.

My take on it is that you are taking a significant risk of really horrible consequences, if you don't follow the letter of the law.


Note that the letter of the law includes some bilateral treaties which modify the the 90 in 180 rule in some countries, which makes the whole thing even much more complicated, but does give some room to maneuver in some places. For example, the Nordic countries do NOT count days spent in non-Nordic Schengen countries, so you could spend 90 days in Germany, sail across to Sweden, and spend another 90 days there without any problem (but the Germans do count days in Nordic countries! ). Antipodeans (Kiwis and Ozzies) have more and better of these than us Pindostanians.



This is in total contrast to the situation in the UK, where Yanks get a new 180 day period every time they enter the country, even if they've only been out for a day. That is subject to "fair use" of course, but in practice the Brits are extremely welcoming and do not create problems for normal law-abiding visitors who are travelling and not trying to work or use their social services. For this reason, the UK is an excellent base for non-European cruisers.

Another excellent base is Turkey, which gives long term visas and/or residence permits fairly easily.


My solution was to get a Finnish residence permit. This does NOT give me the right to be in Schengen countries other than Finland beyond the 90 in 180 rule. I can't imagine how they would enforce that, since I no longer get stamps in my passport passing in or out of Finland, and there are no border controls within Schengen. My experience is that European immigration officials totally lose all interest in me when they see the color of the residence permit, but I stick to the letter of the law nonetheless. Which I recommend to others.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ErikFinn

Bit off topic but since the above popped out, can you anchor out or must stay in marinas over there?

We anchor out nearly 100% of the time.

[Prairie Chicken]

Thanks Dockhead, that covers it pretty darn well.

Here is an EU link https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/wh...er-crossing_en which pertains to Schengen & includes a link to their short stay calculator. The calculator isn't particularly user-friendly but there is also a user guide link. It's a useful tool.

'Over there' is a pretty big region, but anchoring is common all over the Med wherever the coastline permits.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

No, days at sea don't count according to border officials. But do as you please and I'll do the same.

Simply traveling between Italy, Croatia and Montenegro one can stay in the Med Indefinitely.... legally and without penalties. All within the Adriatic.

Apologies for being a bit pedantic, but the only things that count (when assessing your 90 in 180) are the Schengen entry and exit stamps in your passport.

Kenomac's "hint hint" applies. But this is risk. If you're within 12nm of an EU coastline without an entry stamp, you are legally obliged to contact the authorities of the country you're in and ask for check-in instructions.

Dockhead, I'm intrigued. With a Finnish residence permit you have right of residence in the EU customs zone. So you may only own/use a VAT paid vessel. And, yes, you're right. In practical terms (no border controls within Schengen) there's no-one to check your passport unless you catch a plane, ferry or train leaving Schengen.

JimB

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by jckb

Apologies for being a bit pedantic, but the only things that count (when assessing your 90 in 180) are the Schengen entry and exit stamps in your passport.

Kenomac's "hint hint" applies. But this is risk. If you're within 12nm of an EU coastline without an entry stamp, you are legally obliged to contact the authorities of the country you're in and ask for check-in instructions.

JimB

I have all the proper stamps in my passport, my days get counted everytime I leave an EU country.

Jim, you keep leaving out the part (very important part "hint, hint") about countries like Montenegro, Albania and Croatia which are conveniently located in the central Mediterranean, very beautiful and outside of Schengen. Visits to these countries can be used to break up one's stay and extend the 90 day Schengen time limit.

[double u]

"...still be over the stupid 90 ..."

as in 14years of cruising (18years abroad altogether) we were hassled by various visa-, immigration- & other regulations a considerable number of times, I would be very much obliged if all non-EC/Maastrich/whatever-citizens would abstain from using derogatory terms for "our" regulations until they have verified that said regs in their country of origin are "cleverer" & more "cruiserfriendly". thank you!