Overcharging catamarans and other wickeded prices etc. in Croatia

[syPhilos]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

In a slip based marina, it gets a little complicated depending on if a typical slip for that length boat will hold the cat. If you can fit into a standard slip there should be no up-charge but if they need to move your 40' boat into a 60' slip to get enough width, then it's a valid issue.

I was in a marina that charged mono's by the length x beam formula.
Cats were charged length x beams + 50%.

So we had a Prout Snowgoose and a Lagoon 37, IIRC.
The Lagoon needed 2 slips, the Prout had a narrow beam mono next to it.

Guess which owner was happy with that formula?

(They have since changed the formula, now all cats simply pay for 2 slips and everybody complains )

[syPhilos]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Yes, I understand, but then they should charge for a mooring independent of size.
A Albin Vega should pay the same as an Oyster 62. Seems not fair to me either.

Why not? Same mooring, it's not like they can dump in another one next to the Vega just cos it's smaller ... Not really relevant what size boat takes the mooring, IMHO.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by MartinR

A Albin Vega should pay the same as an Oyster 62. Seems not fair to me either.

Assuming the moorings are laid out in a fixed pattern, it's perfectly fair that they pay the same. Each takes up the same amount of space in the field.

Now some mooring fields have areas laid out for longer boats and other areas for shorter boats. Assuming they can fit more boats into the shorter boat area, it makes sense that shorter boats in that area pay less.

[Peregrine1983]

I totally disagree with the logic that because catamarans are “generally more expensive”, the owners therefore “must have more money” and should be charged more.

In this dystopia, not only will the owner of the 30 year-old Prout with no sails and a bad epoxy job on one hull be charged more than the owner of a brand new Hallberg-Rassy, the person wearing the Rolex will have to pay 1.5x as much for a pint at the pub than the person wearing the Timex.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by syPhilos

I was in a marina that charged mono's by the length x beam formula.
Cats were charged length x beams + 50%.

So we had a Prout Snowgoose and a Lagoon 37, IIRC.
The Lagoon needed 2 slips, the Prout had a narrow beam mono next to it.

Guess which owner was happy with that formula?

(They have since changed the formula, now all cats simply pay for 2 slips and everybody complains )

European marinas seem more rigid about the issue.

We had a Gemini (34 x14) in the US. It was rare we couldn't fit into a standard 35' slip. We had a few marinas try to surcharge but they backed off when we asked for an explanation. After a while, we just started giving the boat dimensions and let them come back after the fact and explain it to us what the hull configuration did to change things...never paid a surcharge.

I can see an area based charge or a surcharge if your length to beam ratio exceeds a certain amount (some newer flat bottom monos are pretty darn wide).

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

I totally disagree with the logic that because catamarans are “generally more expensive”, the owners therefore “must have more money” and should be charged more.

But that is how the Marinas are reasoning. And it gets worse as more rich people go cruising.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Such a simple solution to a first world problem.

Doesn't sound like a problem to me, more an annoyance.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by MartinR

This is not overcharging. Size wise and cost wise a catamaran is 50% bigger and more expensive than a mono of the same length. So I understand the reasoning completely.

This makes no sense to me. In my experience in larger mooring fields there are moorings for large boats (usually @ >45’) and there are moorings for smaller boats. The difference is in the spacing for swing room and probably the weight/size of the mushroom anchor or whatever they use. The moorings for larger boats are more expensive because the take up more space and require more expensive tackle.

If you rent a hotel room they don’t charge you according to how expensive your clothes are.

[tiopirata]

This reasoning should give multihull owners a discount for their lack of draft, they are cheaper to provide swing moorings for then a monohull. Only in a marina or such is there any justification for
extra charge, which extra charge would definitely apply to many modern monohulls with their extreme beam and draft.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by p435

This is also something we discuss here in Croatia. At the end this would put a large financial burden on owners of small boats compared to large ones. Thus most discussions here in Croatia end up with "charge by length and no surcharge for catamarans".



And you are right the catamaran goes by length PLUS a surcharge.

Actually, if you are calculating swinging room in a tight mooring field, beam DOES come into play. It also comes into play when designing a mooring field for wind loads and displacement, as windage and displacement is all important to mooring placement and size of groun tackle.



I think that 50% is a bit high, the calculations would suggest something more like 25%, but a higher fee is reasonable.


By the way, this is from a cat owner. In VERY general terms, a cat has the space and speed of a mono that is about 25% longer. I have a 46 foot cat and am comfortable when costs are the same as for a 58 foot mono, as the boats are basically equivalent.



It always amuses me when a cat owner brags about how big and fast his boat is, compared to a mono, and then complains when he doesn't get the mono price for some service or another.

[SVTwilight]

While it is profiteering and I dont like, it actually makes sense.

A Cat could present a bigger wind cross section and under certain conditions exert extra force amd wear on the moorimg. It is quite common to charge more for larger boats on both moorings and docks of course. Hey, the Cat IS bigger.

Here in Rhode Island, they base the boat registration on size thresholds. There is no sales tax. Why should I pay a higher registration fee than the next boat because I am a few feet longer? They dont charge car licenses by size.

Right now I am on an airplane and the guy next to me weighs at least 30 kilos more than I, but they dont charge him any more for a flight ticket, even though it costs more fuel to keep him airborne than me.

So, I am with the OP about the gouging, but the only way to stop it is not to submit to it and put the momey into your anchor amd windlass...

[Rapanui]

Yep, Croatia is expensive for the average owner sailor. We have or boat based there and been going for 8 years, and even we get caught out. As an example, we visited Telascica National Park on Dugi Otok and took a buoy and were charged 500 Kuna which is a mouth watering £60 or 68Euro, without any facilities apart from the buoy. All boats inc cats from 11m to 18m were charged the same. A few years ago we were charged less than 200 kuna. We will not be going again unless they change their charging policy. To be fair, there are much more reasonable buoy fields and municipal harbours around.

The rub is, they will not stop gouging while the overwhelming number of boats are charters, and facilities during most of the season are oversubscribed. In Telascica in June, all the buoys were taken by 1700. Most of charter boats outside of August are groups of people and not families, and taking our boat chartered to 8 people, the cost per person is not reasonable, to a family or a couple with only 1 or 2 people contributing, the prices are crippling.
There are an increasing number of charter companies this year, and a lot more boats and new cats on the charter market outnumbered monos this year. The increase in prices and oversubscribed facilities will get worse until the bubble bursts, of which there is no sign at the moment.

The way we cope is we have a yearly marina berth which is a fairly reasonable price, safe and high quality. We anchor a lot, use restaurant moorings, have number of bad weather anchorage boltholes, use buoys and harbour walls judiciously, and if in range dodge back to the home marina for forecast bad weather. Even so, mooring charges are still a sizeable portion of our budget. The other thing we do is sail a lot early (April-June) and late (Sep - Oct). Its a bit cheaper but much quieter and tends to be better sailing.
It's still worth it to us, but increasingly, Croatia is a victim of it's own success as a charter venue.

[ferrailleur]

a catamaran is equal the width of two monos…. right?

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by Rapanui

[...]
The other thing we do is sail a lot early (April-June) and late (Sep - Oct). Its a bit cheaper but much quieter and tends to be better sailing.
It's still worth it to us, but increasingly, Croatia is a victim of it's own success as a charter venue.

That's a very reasonable approach, as prices always go up with demand and drop off when there is an oversupply. As long as Croatia stays that popular it's unlikely to change.
Having said that, haven't they also increased other fees recently like cruising permits? If the costs overall get too high people will turn to other places, like Macedonia, Greece and Turkey.

[Lihuedooley77]

We have chosen the vessels that we sail , and the sailing life style. Yep, just monohulls, and our mooring fees here in southern california, id: Catalina are about double what they are in Croatia. Shore boat fees are also expensive running from the boat to the pleasure pier and back.

I dont think that they charge more for a sea going condomaximals, but not sure since they have a lot more beam, and might not fit into the mooring field separation plan between moorings. Never thought of that before.

In the BVI, it is one standard mooring fee no matter the vessel type or length. That is a pretty good plan....moorings are all $ 30.00 green. And they rake in the bucks. It is just part of the sailing and boating world.

There are places to anchor, but we just pay the freight for a mooring, and sleep well at night. No dragging anchors, no playing bumper boats at 2 am, and no standing anchor watches.

Lordy, I just added up two weeks worth of mooring fees, at $ 30.00 in the BVI....Catalina would be more, but we hold that down to about 7 days.

BVI; $ 420.00 / 14 nights. Maybe a little less, as a couple of places might still be charging the old price of $ 25.00. Oh well, it is what it is.

sailing vacations are expensive. Actually darned near all traveling will be a bit costly...but that is what it is.

And, yes, we do have the option of anchoring for free. But prefer the overall safety and ease of mind with a mooring.

Also, in the BVI, we watch the Catamarans come into to pick up a mooring, and the skipper has his novice crew pretty well trained. Smooth and easy and the party is on. Good on them.

We are snugged in to the cockpit on our 36 ft. monohull, and hoist a rum libation to them. And then to ourselves, And then to the next boat to arrive, and then.....