Med cruising and managing Schengen

[chuckr]

Don't forget one little item in Greece is the transit document you have to carry and some say you have to get it stamped at each port some not. Not sure of your flag but we got nailed not by our passport but the transit document as we overstayed because we hit something in the water at Crete and broke our propeller. Took 3 weeks to get it all worked out and when we checked out in Rhodes they tried to fine us but after a couple of hours of "discussions" they let us go. Never checked our passports for dates
But I guess if you check out and leave the boat not sure what happens to your transit log. If you turn it in then I guess you get a new one but some folks on here know more of that than I do

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Only EARNED income is excluded, that is, salary. If you have investments, you're screwed. Or self employment income, or royalty income, etc. etc.

The reporting is extremely burdensome, with huge penalties for small mistakes ($10,000 per single bank account or financial asset you forget to report; $50,000 or confiscation if you don't report after a notice is sent to you which people travelling usually don't get; etc. etc. etc. etc.) but also for any BANK you are dealing with -- so people with a U.S. passport are already extremely unwelcome in most European banks.

The person asking about this has already made an informed decision, so this isn't really relevant to anything, but a U.S. passport is an awful liability. I would give my eye tooth for a U.K. one.

There’s also a harsh expatriation tax in the US. If you renounce your citizenship and are worth over $2m or are a high income earner. You pay 23% to the paper value of the gain in excess of $700k on your assets. You pay it even if you don’t sell them.

You should be able to get UK citizenship by naturalisation after all these years in the UK. I have the impression that every man and his dog can do it, so a man such as you ought to have no difficulty.

Still, I’m not sure it is such a good idea. We have the prospect of a Corbyn government on the near horizon. If that happens the attractiveness of the UK will decline dramatically for a lot of people.

[Dauntlessny]

Dockhead gave very good advice about the VAT. I also think that is the bigger issue because one of you has a UK passport.
Unless you purposely want to cross the Atlantic (I did), then it's best to get a boat already in Europe.

As far as Schengen, a good rule of thumb, as told my JimB, is to avoid at all costs FLYING out or in of Schengen countries. Now, both directions, in and out, is not always possible, but one direction is doable.

So, that's why i kept Dauntless in Waterford for almost two years. The first summer, I did the Baltic for xx months. I did my 18 month EU exit for the boat in Norway. Then, I flew out of Europe from Ireland.

[aye-aye-captain]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you don't need to be on the boat 365 days per year, another option is to put her up and travel somewhere else for a few months. Winter is usually pretty dead on the water anyway, so plan as such:
- spring: in Schengen
- Summer: in Non-Schengen
- Fall: in Schengen
- Winter: Fly somewhere and pick up a cheap apartment for 3 months.

If the summer heat is too bad for you, you can always fly out in the summer also and still get 6 months per year.

Sounds like a good plan. However, I would not miss summer in Schengen.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

There’s also a harsh expatriation tax in the US. If you renounce your citizenship and are worth over $2m or are a high income earner. You pay 23% to the paper value of the gain in excess of $700k on your assets. You pay it even if you don’t sell them.

You should be able to get UK citizenship by naturalisation after all these years in the UK. I have the impression that every man and his dog can do it, so a man such as you ought to have no difficulty.

Still, I’m not sure it is such a good idea. We have the prospect of a Corbyn government on the near horizon. If that happens the attractiveness of the UK will decline dramatically for a lot of people.

Indeed. The U.S. is in general a quite free society, except what regards money -- the relationship of fiscal authorities to people is fascistic.


As to UK citizenship -- it's easy once you have a WORK PERMIT, and then work and pay taxes for five years. The work permit is quite difficult.

English heritage counts for zero. It's not even easy to marry into UK citizenship.

I have a number of American friends who did manage to get UK passports and renounced their U.S. citizenship. I'm envious, but as an entrepreneur I never had the reason or basis to get the work permit. Nor the desire to pay UK taxes for 5 years, even though after that you're free -- no extraterritorial taxation.

If Corbyn gets in, then you're right -- watch out. The UK will change a lot, and not for the good. Between this and Brexit, some of my English friends are contemplating moving to Estonia.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed. The U.S. is in general a quite free society, except what regards money -- the relationship of fiscal authorities to people is fascistic.


As to UK citizenship -- it's easy once you have a WORK PERMIT, and then work and pay taxes for five years. The work permit is quite difficult.

English heritage counts for zero. It's not even easy to marry into UK citizenship.

I have a number of American friends who did manage to get UK passports and renounced their U.S. citizenship. I'm envious, but as an entrepreneur I never had the reason or basis to get the work permit. Nor the desire to pay UK taxes for 5 years, even though after that you're free -- no extraterritorial taxation.

If Corbyn gets in, then you're right -- watch out. The UK will change a lot, and not for the good. Between this and Brexit, some of my English friends are contemplating moving to Estonia.

That's interesting how difficult it is for entrepreneurs. Another category or alternate description of entrepreneur is self employed. So 'employed'. I expect you have explored that sort of approach. Strange also to hear of difficulties as I have the impression it is easy to come to the UK because the non EU born population numbers are high.

Why Estonia? You might also end up a Russian citizen unintentionally.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

That's interesting how difficult it is for entrepreneurs. Another category or alternate description of entrepreneur is self employed. So 'employed'. I expect you have explored that sort of approach. Strange also to hear of difficulties as I have the impression it is easy to come to the UK because the non EU born population numbers are high.

Why Estonia? You might also end up a Russian citizen unintentionally.

My friends consider Estonia because (a) Tallinn is one of the most beautiful cities in the world; (b) flat 20% income tax; (c) practically zero corporate income tax; (d) unbelievably cheap real estate (almost impossible to spend €1 million euros on a house); (e) extremely good transportation (taxi to the airport from the center costs €4.50); (f) rich cultural life; (g) highly educated population; (h) excellent location for doing business in different Baltic and Scandinavian countries; (i) multiple cheap SleazyJet and RyanAir flights to London. Estonia is really an extraordinarily nice country. I've thought about it myself. As a Russian speaker it's especially attractive to me because of all of the Russian theatre and culture (Tallinn is majority ethnic Russian). Everyone speaks English and Russian.


For a UK working visa as an entrepreneur, there are different criteria, certain amount of investment, creation of certain number of working places. I could do it, but it's not economic for me to move my office to London, and I never wanted to pay taxes in the UK (they're rather high). I only wanted to live and sail in the UK, and have the passport, not work or pay taxes. Pipe dream, probably.

[Kalinka1]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

Dockhead gave very good advice about the VAT. I also think that is the bigger issue because one of you has a UK passport.
Unless you purposely want to cross the Atlantic (I did), then it's best to get a boat already in Europe.

As far as Schengen, a good rule of thumb, as told my JimB, is to avoid at all costs FLYING out or in of Schengen countries. Now, both directions, in and out, is not always possible, but one direction is doable.

So, that's why i kept Dauntless in Waterford for almost two years. The first summer, I did the Baltic for xx months. I did my 18 month EU exit for the boat in Norway. Then, I flew out of Europe from Ireland.

Hi Richard Where are you now? The boys in the boat yard would like to know. Noel from Kalinka1

[Catapault]

You don't have to get the Greek transit doc stamped at each location anymore, they repealed that law.

With regards VAT, do watch one thing. Yes you can get TI for the boat for 18 months, BUT there is a catch, you can be on it for 6 months, then you have to leave the EU for 6 months. This is not visa, it is the TI.

We were recently advised in Cyprus by customs that this is about to start being enforced and directives have gone out to do so across the EU. They will/may check how long you have been in the EU when doing the customs import. This is part of the "Normally Established outside the EU" stuff for the TI.

Either way, The combination of Schengen and VAT hop-scotch is making cruising the med in a foreign flagged boat, with foreign passports, a right pain in the neck, especially if you are full time live-aboard like us (as opposed to just come for the summer).

Regards

Mark.

[mcarthur]

Originally Posted by Catapault

With regards VAT, do watch one thing. Yes you can get TI for the boat for 18 months, BUT there is a catch, you can be on it for 6 months, then you have to leave the EU for 6 months. This is not visa, it is the TI.

We were recently advised in Cyprus by customs that this is about to start being enforced and directives have gone out to do so across the EU. They will/may check how long you have been in the EU when doing the customs import. This is part of the "Normally Established outside the EU" stuff for the TI.

Either way, The combination of Schengen and VAT hop-scotch is making cruising the med in a foreign flagged boat, with foreign passports, a right pain in the neck, especially if you are full time live-aboard like us (as opposed to just come for the summer).

Hey Mark, this was starting to worry me too.
It reads that the skipper must be out of the zone for six months after being there for six months (I presume it's a "six months in any twelve" clause). But it means that you can't simply have a married couple where you designate one as the skipper for each six months and just keep cruising - you actually have to go outside the zone for six.

So there's at least three time issues I think?:
- person: non-EU resident away for 90 days out of 180. Can be changed by getting a 12-month extended visa in a single country
- Boat VAT: 18 months only, but reset on even one day out of Schengen
- Boat skipper: skipper 6 months away out of every 12

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

theoretically, yes , Idont see why you cant do the following



check in on your 1 passport , (get it stamped) stay 90 days and check out (get it stamped) spend a day outside schengen , take your other passport and check in (get it stamped) stay another 90 days .. and check out (get it stamped) thats 180 days total ..

I did exactly that last year. It worked. BUT I did not see anyone count my 'in Schengen' days, unless it was done by a computerised system of the immigration without me noticing.

[fieldtrip400]

Originally Posted by 42Possibilities

We are Canadian sailors (non-Schengen). One of our life dreams is to cruise the Mediterranean.
We've researched CF. Some say it’s not worth the trouble for non-treaty country sailors to cruise the Med while staying within the limits. Others suggest that hardly anyone gets caught so not to worry too much about it. We do not want to break the rules (i.e. exceed 90 days in any 180 day period within the Schengen area).
I agree it would be much easier not to go but we’ve worked toward this for a long time (we had hoped that the process for extended visas would be in place by now). We are pretty much on schedule in our preparations.
The plan is for a mid-late June departure from the East coast of Canada (dodging the icebergs ), arriving in the Med, via the Azores, late July/early Aug 2018. We are looking at departing the Med for the Caribbean in the fall of 2019.This gives us about 15 months in the Med.
We would like to see as much as possible while not feeling rushed to get from place to place. We’d prefer to mostly day-sail but realize some longer passages may be necessary. We will have to decide on a good place to winter-over.
We have to figure out how to work around the Schengen limits. (Including any Schengen time requirements for the Azores and Canary Islands.) We would appreciate knowledgeable opinions/suggestions (ideally based on experience) for potential itineraries.

“I’m not superstitious but don’t believe in taking unnecessary risks either”

42 possibilities,

Did you go? How did it go? What did you do?
we have contacted both Spanish Italian consulate here in Los Angeles. they're both intrigued and don't have any good answers for us... amazing :-)

we start May 31st in Schengen and must leave no sooner than November 25th with the arc that's 5 months this is crazy we're trying to get through the Western med we don't have time to go bobbing around non schengen countries on the path that we have and we are trying to locate anchorages we can afford. Wish we can stay longer we have 10 and 12 year olds and we have one year to get back to the US. this is how we can do it.... wish we could stay much longer but we have these parameters to work with and enjoy hoping to figure out something quickly as we're leaving in 48 days!

[Tricolor]

These topics about the EU visa rules every time surprise me, believe me with me many Europeans are happy that they exist. Doesn't the US or Canada have no visa rules or doesn't enforce them? Don't waste your (limited) time over there, enjoy.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by fieldtrip400

42 possibilities,

Did you go? How did it go? What did you do?
we have contacted both Spanish Italian consulate here in Los Angeles. they're both intrigued and don't have any good answers for us... amazing :-)

we start May 31st in Schengen and must leave no sooner than November 25th with the arc that's 5 months this is crazy we're trying to get through the Western med we don't have time to go bobbing around non schengen countries on the path that we have and we are trying to locate anchorages we can afford. Wish we can stay longer we have 10 and 12 year olds and we have one year to get back to the US. this is how we can do it.... wish we could stay much longer but we have these parameters to work with and enjoy hoping to figure out something quickly as we're leaving in 48 days!

You can comfortably get to the Canaries in 4 weeks..
I have done Bari, Italy to Gran Canaria in 18days so you have plenty of time to spend along the way.. Tunisia.. Morroco.. Gibraltar..
Personally I would spend 6weeks getting to Gib and your remaining 6weeks sailing round the Canaries.. you can prep your boat for the ARC in Gib.. maybe a couple of stops along the Morrocan coast eg Agadir.. for trips to Fez etc.
Life is tough both ways.. try buying a boat and getting outa the US in 3mths... and not a day longer coz..
(Quote: We jes lurve deporting folks..)

[42Possibilities]

Originally Posted by fieldtrip400

42 possibilities,

Did you go? How did it go? What did you do?
we have contacted both Spanish Italian consulate here in Los Angeles. they're both intrigued and don't have any good answers for us... amazing :-)

we start May 31st in Schengen and must leave no sooner than November 25th with the arc that's 5 months this is crazy we're trying to get through the Western med we don't have time to go bobbing around non schengen countries on the path that we have and we are trying to locate anchorages we can afford. Wish we can stay longer we have 10 and 12 year olds and we have one year to get back to the US. this is how we can do it.... wish we could stay much longer but we have these parameters to work with and enjoy hoping to figure out something quickly as we're leaving in 48 days!

fieldtrip400
No, we haven’t. Although it is something we still want to do, these restrictions are making Med cruising less attractive. (And new to me, as posted by Catapult, the skipper must be 6 months away out of every 12) We plan to cruise locally this year (ie East Coast). Ideally there will be some policy changes. If not, we will decide to go anyway and deal with it or chose different cruising grounds.