Med cruising and managing Schengen

[Lambretta]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Update on my thoughts...

We know many couples and families who burn out completely within six months trying to do what you're doing, which is to see way too much in too short a time by covering many thousands of miles. They end up not seeing much of anything except for a few rushed tours of a couple cities in each country, then give up due to the travel drain on their relationship and wear and tear on the boat.... which causes many frustrating delays due to repairs.

Some good friends of ours are always in such a hurry to cover so much distance, they never have time to see anything. Over the past two months, they covered 4500 nm on their way back to "settle down a bit" in Croatia from Antigua. They made it to Barcelona before they quit again, now their plans are to try start #4 in April 2018, and all they saw on restart #3 (this yesr) besides the Atlantic ocean was Gibraltar for a week, Azores for two days, Barcelona for a week and Cartegena, their only stops.

The first place prize medal doesn't go to the couple who covers the most miles.

Now that advice is worth its weight in gold
Nothing like experience talking!!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BandB

Correcting one word in your first paragraph. It's not "Theoretically, it's Legally."

If you go from country to country in a boat does that change the situation any or do they still accept your residence card and not question?

Now, my understanding is that while that might well work as it has for you, if one ever got caught doing it, then you're out and no more visa back of any sort.

Would a group of 12 people or so be able to do it together? I would think that would lead to some red flags.

Remember that bureaucrats like immigration officials are intensely focused on documents, stamps, and proof -- that's the world they live in.

So that means they have no way to do the work required to ding you for moving around inside Schengen, differently than they think you should, unless it's something rather blatant.

As I wrote -- if you shouldn't blatantly or obviously violate the rules. If you seem to be doing what your visa provides for, you should be ok, because of how extremely impractical it would be for anyone to count up your days between different Schengen countries.

I don't actually violate any rules at all. Most of my Schengen time is in fact spent in my residence permit country.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by omc

With all due respect to Dockhead,

According to knowledge of law which is my job, I would state that BandB is definitely right, the risk is great, it does not match the gain.
Generally speaking, everyone does his own things but is supposed to be aware of the implications of risk. More precisely, as is know in our system, ignorance or oversight of the law is no excuse or defence.

I would like for my advice to be properly understood.

I have plenty of respect for the law -- I'm a lawyer and former law professor

I am not advising people to get a residence permit somewhere and then move around Schengen without a care in the world. You should do what you said you were going to do on your application for that residence permit, and that's important

What I am saying is that without internal borders inside Schengen, there is practically no control over how people move around inside of Schengen, and that no one is going to count your days between Germany and France, say.

If you are not a Schengen resident and you are staying out 90 days out of 180 to comply -- immigration authorities can and do demand your passport so that they can check all the stamps and count up the days.

If you ARE a Schengen resident -- say in France -- then you have the right to be in Schengen not 90 out of 180, but 365 out of 365 if you want. You are not supposed to spend more than 90 out of 180 in OTHER Schengen countries, but that is a very different proposition, from not being supposed to spend more than 90 out of 180 in Schengen altogether. There are no stamps to check.

So what I am saying is that if you are complying with the SPIRIT of your residence permit and you really are primarily based in France, no one is going to care at all that you spent 100 days in Netherlands and Germany rather than 90 before going back to France.

It's VERY DIFFERENT for non-residents. Overstay 10 days when you are supposed to be completely out of Schengen, and you can have serious trouble, especially if have the misfortune of entering or leaving through Switzerland, who are particularly fanatic about this.

[Kenomac]

Switzerland, the Zurich airport to be specific, is the only place I've ever had immigration count my days, and where I've needed to produce boarding passes to prove where I've been.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Switzerland, the Zurich airport to be specific, is the only place I've ever had immigration count my days, and where I've needed to produce boarding passes to prove where I've been.

The Swiss are notorious for this -- and CFers should be careful even if they are within the limits, as they are reputed to consider you guilty if you can't prove you've been out long ago.

I've had my days counted by German coast guard, believe it or not, and by others, before I became a Schengen resident. I've seen Schengen days counted scrupulously by Finnish border guards in the train from St. Petersburg. It is definitely not that uncommon. As Ken said, be sure to get your passport properly stamped in and out, and keep your boarding passes and log in order.

[chuckr]

1st lets talk about your trip. You say you want to be in the Med for say 15 months. Do you realize that generally you can not sail the Med for say 6 months in the winter? 2nd do you know how far it is from Portugal to say Croatia? It is let's say 1500nm and that is longer than Miami to the Panama Canal! The Med is not a little pond - it is big with a lot to see.
We are in our 4th year over here with our 3rd year in the Med and one year traveling completely around the Black Sea (and yea Russia was incredible) - we are currently in Greece with our final destination (God willing) Israel for the winter. We have wintered over in Tunisia twice (a great place to winter over) Turkey twice (changing but still doable) and hopefully Israel.
We have jumped in and out of Schengen so may times it is impossible to tell where we have been - One time someone tried to figure out our passports and gave up. Have we overstayed? Yes - but not by much - The only time of significance was when we sailed from Tunisia to Rome around to Albania and did inland travel to a lot of Balkan countries, then up to Croatia and on to Venice and then down to Malta where we decided not to check out but instead went to Lambedusa to check out before going to Tunisia for the winter. The guys in Lambedsa tried to figure out how we got there but gave up and stamped us out and were simply great -

As said above Croatia is great but one of our favorite countries is Albania - we went twice - and Montenegro is really nice but small -
This year we will bob in and out of Greece sailing the far north coast and down the western east side of Greece to Crete and over to Rhodes and then down the Turkish coast to Cyprus and across for our winter home and the plan as usual is to be hunkered down by no later than mid Oct

In 15 months you really can not see a lot but there is some you can see. There is so much to see and do it keeps amazing us - and when we think we have seen it all we find something incredible like yesterday when we drove up to a small village to see King Phillips tomb that was found completely intact and not discovered until the late 70s - it was amazing all the stuff they found - we have seen a lot but were overwhelmed by it.

As others have we have written a bit about Schengen so research is vital and a plan = what do you want to do in the short time you will be here? there is just to much to see and do for a short visit

[omc]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would like for my advice to be properly understood.

I have plenty of respect for the law -- I'm a lawyer and former law professor

I am not advising people to get a residence permit somewhere and then move around Schengen without a care in the world. You should do what you said you were going to do on your application for that residence permit, and that's important

What I am saying is that without internal borders inside Schengen, there is practically no control over how people move around inside of Schengen, and that no one is going to count your days between Germany and France, say.

If you are not a Schengen resident and you are staying out 90 days out of 180 to comply -- immigration authorities can and do demand your passport so that they can check all the stamps and count up the days.

If you ARE a Schengen resident -- say in France -- then you have the right to be in Schengen not 90 out of 180, but 365 out of 365 if you want. You are not supposed to spend more than 90 out of 180 in OTHER Schengen countries, but that is a very different proposition, from not being supposed to spend more than 90 out of 180 in Schengen altogether. There are no stamps to check.

So what I am saying is that if you are complying with the SPIRIT of your residence permit and you really are primarily based in France, no one is going to care at all that you spent 100 days in Netherlands and Germany rather than 90 before going back to France.

It's VERY DIFFERENT for non-residents. Overstay 10 days when you are supposed to be completely out of Schengen, and you can have serious trouble, especially if have the misfortune of entering or leaving through Switzerland, who are particularly fanatic about this.

Thank you for taking the time to write and to clarify.

I have always had great respect for university law teachers. They have chosen as careers something different from the mainstream - something in the interest of the students good, instead of, for many of them, incorporating full time a law firm right after graduation which would have led them to a windfall financial gain, also much less stress. Even if everyone is subject to the law and that state action must be consistent with the law, there are more problematic situations where law was not taught which made enforcement difficult, teachers show how to deal with challenging situations and that we must bear in mind the freedom of doubt. Mostly very dedicated, teachers enjoy sharing their passion and enthusiasm with others far more often than is realized.

Quite frankly I was in no doubt that you don't violate any rules at all. To start here a three-party chat with you (you are a lawyer and former law teacher) and with BandB (whom I have known for years, he has a strong training and knowledge of law) is one thing. My writing was based on my concerns relating to the possible wrong interpretation of your post #42 by some people here who may not be conversant with the laws and regulations applicable, which may be another thing. Then in my own opinion, it was important for you to clarify, thank you about that.

Since the terrorist attacks that occurred in Europe at the beginning of 2015, along with the significant rise in the number of asylum seekers it is clear that under the Schengen Agreement, some difficulties are growing out of all proportion. If Schengen is no doubt a success story, its construction is complex and incomplete, now under pressure of the temptation of reintroducing borders. The hardest blow came after the fatal attacks on Paris on 13th November. In addition to the heavy count of victims came an increasingly sharp criticism of the failings of Schengen. Due to some remarkable work by the Luxembourg Presidency, ministers adopted conclusions, the outcome of which was to save Schengen rather than destroy it. Then in an extremely sensitive context, its survival still hangs in the balance. For the first time ever the Member States have used the possibility of extending border controls and combined procedures, the implementation of available operation and tools like the establishment of hotspots, the intervention of Frontex and even the use of rapid response teams.

All of this is to say our CF's friends who travel in "Schengenland" to not take any risk, moreover some countries, as you and Ken rightly stated about Switzerland, are nervous and suspicious.
Germany, Indeed the Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland and the Scandinavian countries (Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland) are very strict. Your stamps will be thoroughly controlled and the immigration official will count the days you stayed in. The outcome will depend on how long you overstayed. It can go from a warning or a high fine up to an “illegal immigrant” stamp on your passport and your immigration record.

On the other hand, border controls in Spain, France, Italy and Greece are less rigorous. You shouldn’t have many problems if you don’t overstay too long (a week or so). Nevertheless, keep in mind that you rely on the immigrations officer’s mood.

You can travel around Europe for more than 90 days. And it’s easy; you only need to smartly combine the countries you stay in. If you are thinking about extending your Schengen Tourist Visa, forget about it. There is no way to do so.

Also as you said, people can apply for a long-term visa, this is a semi-permanent visa that lasts up to one year. The requirements and process vary in each country. The easiest countries to apply for this kind of visa are France, Sweden and Italy, so far.

[omc]

Originally Posted by chuckr

1st lets talk about your trip. You say you want to be in the Med for say 15 months. Do you realize that generally you can not sail the Med for say 6 months in the winter? 2nd do you know how far it is from Portugal to say Croatia? It is let's say 1500nm and that is longer than Miami to the Panama Canal! The Med is not a little pond - it is big with a lot to see.
We are in our 4th year over here with our 3rd year in the Med and one year traveling completely around the Black Sea (and yea Russia was incredible) - we are currently in Greece with our final destination (God willing) Israel for the winter. We have wintered over in Tunisia twice (a great place to winter over) Turkey twice (changing but still doable) and hopefully Israel.
We have jumped in and out of Schengen so may times it is impossible to tell where we have been - One time someone tried to figure out our passports and gave up. Have we overstayed? Yes - but not by much - The only time of significance was when we sailed from Tunisia to Rome around to Albania and did inland travel to a lot of Balkan countries, then up to Croatia and on to Venice and then down to Malta where we decided not to check out but instead went to Lambedusa to check out before going to Tunisia for the winter. The guys in Lambedsa tried to figure out how we got there but gave up and stamped us out and were simply great -

As said above Croatia is great but one of our favorite countries is Albania - we went twice - and Montenegro is really nice but small -
This year we will bob in and out of Greece sailing the far north coast and down the western east side of Greece to Crete and over to Rhodes and then down the Turkish coast to Cyprus and across for our winter home and the plan as usual is to be hunkered down by no later than mid Oct

In 15 months you really can not see a lot but there is some you can see. There is so much to see and do it keeps amazing us - and when we think we have seen it all we find something incredible like yesterday when we drove up to a small village to see King Phillips tomb that was found completely intact and not discovered until the late 70s - it was amazing all the stuff they found - we have seen a lot but were overwhelmed by it.

As others have we have written a bit about Schengen so research is vital and a plan = what do you want to do in the short time you will be here? there is just to much to see and do for a short visit

Great post and informations, thank you.

If you can, don't miss Israel, where stranger sailors are welcomed and greeted. I have enjoyed sailing there.

[Yofy]

Okay, I know this has been rehashed many, many times but we're still brainstorming. To clarify our personal situation: We are a cruising couple with dual citizenship and therefore carry two different passports. Unfortunately neither one of them is within the Schengen countries.

Our dream is to take our boat to Greece and leave it there, allowing us to spend 6 months of each year cruising and then fly back home. Of course this is not possible within the current Schengen rules.

BUT.... we wondered....
We carry Israeli and Canadian passports. Would it be possible to fly into Greece with our Israeli passports, go to our boat and cruise for 3 months and fly out with our Israeli passports. Then say two weeks later to re-enter, this time with our Canadian passorts, go to our boat and cruise for the remaining 3 months and then fly out with our Canadian passports?

Does anybody have any idea if theoretically this would be possible??
Would we have problems with our cruising papers in Greece this way?? (using 2 different passports)??

Robyn

[boatman61]

Not a hope in hell..

[Palarran]

Robyn,
I don't know why it wouldn't work. The paperwork for a foreign flagged boat is a joke in Greece. It's all done manually and in the end, they just stick it in a ledger and file it - there's no cross referencing. It would actually be easy to just sail to Turkey or Albania and then return. Once you know the procedures to get a transit log, it's not very difficult.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Robyn,
I don't know why it wouldn't work. The paperwork for a foreign flagged boat is a joke in Greece. It's all done manually and in the end, they just stick it in a ledger and file it - there's no cross referencing. It would actually be easy to just sail to Turkey or Albania and then return. Once you know the procedures to get a transit log, it's not very difficult.

I believe they are talking about getting around the 90 day rule for themselves.. not the 18 months rule for the boat.

[Palarran]

I'm not saying it's legal, just that it could work :-)

[boatman61]

With a passport other than Israeli maybe.. just maybe.. but in that part of the world playing a passport game is going to be a dangerous game methinks.

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by Yofy

Does anybody have any idea if theoretically this would be possible??
Would we have problems with our cruising papers in Greece this way?? (using 2 different passports)??

Robyn

theoretically, yes , Idont see why you cant do the following



check in on your 1 passport , (get it stamped) stay 90 days and check out (get it stamped) spend a day outside schengen , take your other passport and check in (get it stamped) stay another 90 days .. and check out (get it stamped) thats 180 days total ..