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Old 21-01-2018, 17:50   #16
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

I have been researching this as well....and one wrinkle I have potentially found:

EU resident's are not permitted to temporarily import boats that are not VAT paid. With VAT rates between 18% and 25% of boat value that would be a nasty surprise.

From the EU webpage on VAT as applied to sailboats:

"Non-EU vessels which are intended for re-export may be temporarily be brought into and used for private purposes in the EU, or more strictly in the 'customs territory of the Community', (which includes our territorial waters) without customs duties or Value Added Tax (VAT) needing to be paid. But this can only be done by persons who are not EU residents - in official terms - by people who are 'established outside that territory'. This facility is thus NOT available to EU residents."

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...ivate-boats_en

Soooo if you get a temporary resident permit are you considered an EU resident for VAT purposes? Or are you considered "established outside that territory" and VAT free? This could certainly complicate things. I would love to hear from others who have done this sort of thing!
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Old 21-01-2018, 18:23   #17
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

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Originally Posted by Dtm67 View Post
I have been researching this as well....and one wrinkle I have potentially found:

EU resident's are not permitted to temporarily import boats that are not VAT paid. With VAT rates between 18% and 25% of boat value that would be a nasty surprise.

From the EU webpage on VAT as applied to sailboats:

"Non-EU vessels which are intended for re-export may be temporarily be brought into and used for private purposes in the EU, or more strictly in the 'customs territory of the Community', (which includes our territorial waters) without customs duties or Value Added Tax (VAT) needing to be paid. But this can only be done by persons who are not EU residents - in official terms - by people who are 'established outside that territory'. This facility is thus NOT available to EU residents."

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...ivate-boats_en

Soooo if you get a temporary resident permit are you considered an EU resident for VAT purposes? Or are you considered "established outside that territory" and VAT free? This could certainly complicate things. I would love to hear from others who have done this sort of thing!
Also interested in this. AND, if you get some kind of long stay visa or temporary resident status are you also liable for EU tax on income?
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Old 21-01-2018, 18:27   #18
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

Pretty sure "EU resident" means getting the residence permit, e.g. after five years of continuous residence.

"Continuous residence does not include residence under a temporary residence permit"

But IANAL
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Old 21-01-2018, 18:34   #19
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Also interested in this. AND, if you get some kind of long stay visa or temporary resident status are you also liable for EU tax on income?
If you get residency I believe you are good for the first year.. then you have to import/register boats, cars and whatever is liable for national taxes.. for example if I buy a bike or car in the UK.. as a UK national I'm okay for the first year.. after that unless I take it back to the UK to reset the clock it has to be deregistered and registered in Portugal.. can be pricey.
Income Taxes will only apply if you are not working for an America, Aussie, UK, whoever company and pay income tax in your home country.. but if you do what I did in Spain and work for a local company you will pay Spanish/whoever income tax.
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Old 21-01-2018, 18:42   #20
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

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If you get residency I believe you are good for the first year.. then you have to import/register boats, cars and whatever is liable for national taxes.. for example if I buy a bike or car in the UK.. as a UK national I'm okay for the first year.. after that unless I take it back to the UK to reset the clock it has to be deregistered and registered in Portugal.. can be pricey.
Income Taxes will only apply if you are not working for an America, Aussie, UK, whoever company and pay income tax in your home country.. but if you do what I did in Spain and work for a local company you will pay Spanish/whoever income tax.
If I'm self employed and move to Spain does that mean I'm working for a local company?
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Old 21-01-2018, 18:53   #21
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pirate Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

It depends.. if you work out country likely not.. in country until your found out..
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Old 21-01-2018, 19:24   #22
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

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It depends.. if you work out country likely not.. in country until your found out..
Since all I do is send a few emails and talk on the phone I'll bet I could fly under the Spanish radar. Besides, I can be a sneaky kind of guy.
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Old 21-01-2018, 23:04   #23
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

Another issue that technically gets you but could be relatively easy to game is a if you get a 1yr visa say for France, it only applies to time spent in France. Time spent in Greece, Italy and Spain is still under the normal schengen 90 out of 180 rule. Much harder for them to prove...unless something goes wrong and they have reason to check where the boat spent it's time. Keep in mind marinas and even hotels check and record passport info. It's a low risk but a risk.

Also about a year ago there was talk about a long stay tourist visa. About the time of Brexit, it suddenly went silent (probably had bigger issues to deal with). Anyone know if it's just totally dead or if it's slowly working it's way thru the system?

Unfortunately in terms of the overall EU tourism market, the stray long term foreign cruiser just isn't a big enough market to get attention.
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Old 22-01-2018, 02:30   #24
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

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The US has a bi-lateral treaty with France. Which means that you have 90 days free time there that will not count against you and will reset your clock. Other places such as Gib don't count either. However, if you decided to apply for a VISA, do it before you leave or you may find you'll have to fly back to the States.

Maje
It's true that there is a bilateral treaty with France, but spending time there will NOT reset any clock! Unlike the case with the 18-month temporary import, no clocks get reset, ever, with Schengen time. It's always 90 of 180; just that France counts only time you spend there.

The bilateral treaty with France means that time in other Schengen countries does not count against you in France, but time in France DOES count against you in other Schengen countries -- get it?

If you spend 90 days in the Netherlands, then go to France, you get another 90 days. But NOT vice versa!

As others have said, the general principle is 90 days collectively in any and all Schengen countries out of any given 180 period is all that is allowed. Working the bilateral treaties is tricky and can be dangerous, as not all border officials are well informed.

The better solution is to just stay out of Schengen for 90 out of 180. The UK is not in Schengen, nor is Turkey.

Alternatively, a residence permit, which is what I do. They are not easy to acquire, though. And even a residence permit does not legally entitle you to roam the Schengen zone at will -- you are still allowed only 90 out of 180 in other Schengen countries, other than the one which issued the permit. Because of open borders, this is usually hard to enforce, but you had better not get caught living for a year in Italy with a Greek residence permit, for example.

Schengen is a b***h, I'm afraid. EU citizenship is the only total solution.

Funnily enough, if you have a bit of money, citizenship is actually easier to acquire than a residence permit. See: https://www.quora.com/Which-EU-count...p-requirements. If the linked article is correct, it is possible to acquire Bulgarian citizenship with only €195 000 investment and demonstrating €1 million net assets. It takes a year.

EU citizenship also gives you the right to a Blue Card, so your health care is taken care of. Altogether, EU citizenship is extremely desirable, however, you do lose the right to sail in EU waters with a non-VAT paid boat.
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Old 22-01-2018, 04:45   #25
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

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. . .
Soooo if you get a temporary resident permit are you considered an EU resident for VAT purposes? Or are you considered "established outside that territory" and VAT free? This could certainly complicate things. I would love to hear from others who have done this sort of thing!
That's a heck of a question. I had an EU residence permit for years in a country I was not actually resident in. The permit ALLOWS me to become resident, but does not require it. I asked for it for the specific purpose of being able to do business in the country without Schengen limitations, and not to become resident and pay taxes there, and they gave it to me. In that country (at least), you start paying taxes and start being considered a resident only after another step of registration which at the same time gives you the right to social services. The residence permit by itself does not do that; that's just PERMISSION to come and do the next step.

I would hate to argue that to an aggressive customs guy, though, and I would never try. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that this would be a big fat loser.
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Old 24-01-2018, 03:53   #26
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

Not that it's necessarily relevant to you, but it may be to other skippers on the forum to point out that Croatia is also (for the moment, at least) not in Schengen.

That means it's possible to spend 90 days there without it counting towards your Schengen zone allowance.

This is important to us since we keep a sailing yacht in Croatia and a motor boat on the inland waterways in France. Not sure how much longer this is going to be possible....

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Old 24-01-2018, 08:11   #27
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

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UK and Ireland do have stay limits but they are specific to them and not Schengen. They are definitely not part of the Schengen countries unless something changed in the last couple of months. According to the websites I researched the Schengen countries are: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland.

So, time in Ireland or the UK does not count against your 90 Schengen days.
Correct. And UK is very easy for Americans -- you get 6 months every time you enter -- they don't limit you to x days in y period, the clock is just reset. You just have to be careful not to exceed cumulative 180 days a year or you will be liable for tax and will be guilty of being a resident without a permit.

Americans trying to stay out of Schengen for 90 out of 180 usually use UK, Channel Islands, Turkey, Croatia, North Africa. You can also use Russia, but Russian Baltic waters are not much of a cruising ground.
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Old 24-01-2018, 08:16   #28
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

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Pretty sure "EU resident" means getting the residence permit, e.g. after five years of continuous residence.

"Continuous residence does not include residence under a temporary residence permit"

But IANAL
No, you're EU resident as soon as you are spending more than 180 out of 360, and that makes you liable for local taxes and any local rules about boat registration etc. A temporary residence permit legalizes that and gives you access to health care and social services, but you have to pay taxes. As an EU resident you are also not allowed to be using a non-VAT tax paid boat in European waters.
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Old 24-01-2018, 08:44   #29
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

Aha, alles klar Herr Kommissar 8-)

Thanks much
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Old 24-01-2018, 09:38   #30
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Re: Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

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Correct. And UK is very easy for Americans -- you get 6 months every time you enter -- they don't limit you to x days in y period, the clock is just reset. You just have to be careful not to exceed cumulative 180 days a year or you will be liable for tax and will be guilty of being a resident without a permit.

Americans trying to stay out of Schengen for 90 out of 180 usually use UK, Channel Islands, Turkey, Croatia, North Africa. You can also use Russia, but Russian Baltic waters are not much of a cruising ground.

Dockhead-

We're US citizens on a US vessel looking to do a season in Norway. Our current plan is:

-Azores in June
-Ireland by July.
-We'll spend our 90days in Ireland then jump over to the UK in October.
-In mid December we'll fly to Germany to visit friends then back to the UK mid January. (Hopefully reset our 6 months in UK).
-Norway in May

Unfortunately, that makes 7 months in the UK if we can't reset out 6 month by leaving for Germany midway through. But, how enforced is the 180 days out of 365 issue? Will we have a problem no matter what?

Edit: Next issue.... after our 90 days in Norway, we had planned on sailing down to Scotland, with a quick jump to Ireland for another 90days... back to UK and start the process again for another season in the Baltic.

Thanks,

Matt
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