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Old 06-04-2017, 10:09   #31
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

I am an American citizen and I live in Germany. I keep my US-flagged Pearson 36 in Holland. If you intend to stay in the EU more that 18 months, you need to pay VAT (but with a fudged bill of sale, the price and VAT can be much less if you have an older boat) and if your boat is not completely CE marked you will have to have a Post-Construction Assessment Survey, but this is if you want to say more than 18 months.

The catch is...US citizens only get a tourist visa for the EU for 90 days. After that you have to leave the Schengen area. The Channel Islands, Isle of Man are convenient. Many in the Mediterranean area go to Tunisia to reset the 18 month clock, but the 90 tourist visa is another issue and I "heard" that the EU is going to change that for sailors.

You should have your boat documented, but a state registration works. You must have 5 million dollars in liability, but you can get that from a Dutch insurance company.

You do need a US radio operator's AND station license, bill of sale, insurance papers, boat registration or documentation (that will show your boat's physical sizes). Log book is not required, but might be asked for.

Yes, rivers in the EU require a CEVNI or ICC which is basically a CEVNI, I haven't had any customs or immigration inspectors ever ask me for a license of any kind, but I have a basic German six-pack license anyway.

There is a lot of this specific info on Noonsite.com —

Do try to have all your "ducks in a row" because flying a US flag is like waving a red flag at a bull when it comes to attracting the attention of the various countries' Coast Guards and immigration officials.

Also weapons are a hassle, even Orion flare pistols. Not illegal, but a hassle just the same.

...and I have never had a "safety inspection" by the UK, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Holland or France, but I am ready for one anyway...

Anymore questions, you can PM me. I am the Port Captain for the SSCA in Enkhuizen, Netherlands on the IJsselmeer.

Come on over...the water's fine.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:06   #32
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Is there anyone here who knows the rules of sailing as skipper on a boat under 24 meters, with English flag?

What qualifications must have, I have the equivalent of Dayskipper.

I think of sailing to Norway and other EU countries

I have heard that there are new rules in GB, so that the ken is if I sail in British waters I do not have anything, but if I want to sail to other countries in Europe, then yacht coast or offshore to the boat is more than 15 meters but less than 24 m

Excuse my bad English, is from Denmark
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Old 06-04-2017, 14:38   #33
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It's a common myth, that the laws of the coastal state do not apply on board a boat flagged in a different state. This is simply not true, and is not even true on the territory of an embassy (where the laws of the state in which the embassy is located are limited only by diplomatic immunity). It's a matter of comity, that certain states recognize certain of each other's rules on board each other's vessels, but by no means does this apply to everything. For example, if you are carrying guns on board your vessel, and this is perfectly legal in your flag state, that is not going to help you if you get caught with them on board in the waters of another state where it is forbidden. You can just keep repeating to yourself "My boat is extraterritorial! My boat is extraterritorial!" while you rot in one of their jails afterwards.

That said, most states do not require different qualifications of the master, than what is required by the flag state, but this is comity, not extraterritoriality, and is not universal. You must, for example, have a full CEVNI license plus special radio license, to navigate most inland waterways in Europe, and most Mediterranean countries require some kind of qualification, preferably the ICC, no matter what your flag state requires. Some of these, like Italy, will recognize the lack of such a requirement, but only if you have a certified letter from the flag state's maritime authority, that you are not required to have any qualification.

As the RYA put it:

"The law of the sea is frequently misunderstood, with many boaters believing that they can go wherever they wish abiding only by the rules of their Flag State (country of registration).

When you visit another country, in most circumstances (as detailed in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) you can be required to comply with the maritime legislation of the visited country (the Coastal State) in addition to that of your vessel’s Flag State."


Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA



Net-net --

Get the ICC. It's simple and inexpensive, and prevents any possible hassle over certificates of competence.

And as to the idea of showing fake documents -- good luck with that. Foreign officials are not always idiots, and they never like to be treated as such. This can only turn out badly for the one of you, without the badge and gun. How hard is it to get the ICC?
While I agree that it is potentially beneficial to have the ICC if you are in European waters, particularly inland waterways, it is not, as it seems to be suggested here, a "pass".
According to the RYA link, "The validity of the ICC is frequently misunderstood. The ICC is not the boating equivalent of the EU driving licence for road vehicles, which all EU member states are obliged to accept. The ICC should be automatically accepted in countries which have adopted Resolution 40. However, of the 56 UNECE countries able to accept the resolution, the UK is one of only a handful which have fully adopted Resolution 40. The ICC’s validity is in fact determined by the visited country, so it is not a truly international qualification."
And I could be wrong, often am, but I think the suggestion of a self-generated, photo shopped certificate of competence was tongue-in-cheek.
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Old 06-04-2017, 14:45   #34
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigdaddy View Post
While I agree that it is potentially beneficial to have the ICC if you are in European waters, particularly inland waterways, it is not, as it seems to be suggested here, a "pass".
According to the RYA link, "The validity of the ICC is frequently misunderstood. The ICC is not the boating equivalent of the EU driving licence for road vehicles, which all EU member states are obliged to accept. The ICC should be automatically accepted in countries which have adopted Resolution 40. However, of the 56 UNECE countries able to accept the resolution, the UK is one of only a handful which have fully adopted Resolution 40. The ICC’s validity is in fact determined by the visited country, so it is not a truly international qualification."
And I could be wrong, often am, but I think the suggestion of a self-generated, photo shopped certificate of competence was tongue-in-cheek.
You are absolutely right, that nothing obligates most countries to accept the ICC, so it is accurate to say, as you do, that it is not the equivalent of an EU driving license.

I think the ICC may not be acceptable somewhere, where the flag state requires something different.

But the ICC is the most widely asked-for qualification by far, and AFAIK is universally accepted in Europe. But you are correct -- that is not a matter of law, and everyone should check the requirements of whatever countries' waters he's planning to visit.
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Old 06-04-2017, 14:54   #35
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordboen View Post
Is there anyone here who knows the rules of sailing as skipper on a boat under 24 meters, with English flag?

What qualifications must have, I have the equivalent of Dayskipper.

I think of sailing to Norway and other EU countries

I have heard that there are new rules in GB, so that the ken is if I sail in British waters I do not have anything, but if I want to sail to other countries in Europe, then yacht coast or offshore to the boat is more than 15 meters but less than 24 m

Excuse my bad English, is from Denmark
"[I]f your vessel is used within the legal definition of a pleasure vessel and is either less than 24m (load line) length or less than 80GT, there is no requirement for you to have a certificate of competence to skipper the vessel in UK territorial waters or on the high seas."

Pleasure Craft Regulations | Regulations | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA


Notice that they say nothing about what license you need in the territorial waters of other countries. That depends on the requirements of the coastal state.
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Old 06-04-2017, 15:50   #36
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

I like the cut of Double U's Jib.
How do you think charter companies get all their customers? They forge certificates! Been getting away with it for 30 years to my knowledge.
Make sure you have insurance and boat registration papers and be polite to the guys. They are only doing a job and not interested in hassle.
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Old 06-04-2017, 15:58   #37
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

The two sided document i recieved from the American Sailing Association says its an "international Proficiency Certificate for Yacht Helmsman". It further says, near my picture, that "certificate of proficiency for navigating in the Mediterranean Waters (Yacht Helmsmen"). But no matter how i try, i can't get it to say spell ICC. Is it the same thing?
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Old 06-04-2017, 15:58   #38
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Excellent scoops on this forum for the OP.

Also comes down to FOLLOW PROCEDURES of any country that you plan on visiting. Research and adhere to any requirements of those nations.

Be respectful and prepared. Have what ever documentation or certifications that are necessary. Hace it all organized for presentation.

Also understand that these are Nations / States to themselves, and we are visitors, and they have pride in their countries and their responsibilities.

You come sailing in and tell customs or harbor police to shove it, and for them to pass the word on up the line to the higher up government reps that will not tollerate BS from their bureaucrats.....

Let us know how you like being incarcerated in the local bastile, and maybe the port captain will be kind enough , when you are released after a year or two, to take you sailing on his boat that used to be yours. That might be a stretch, but disrespect of anyone is a bad path in life.....and bullying public officials is flat dumb.

Just follow the countries that you wish to visit procedures and requirements, be professional, and polite, respectful and prepared.

Guess what ?

No Problems with port authority or customs, or immigration , etc.

stay ahead of the power curve and have a grand cruising adventure.
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Old 06-04-2017, 16:10   #39
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

The license you keep is AS REQUIRED BY THE FLAG (registration) COUNTRY OF YOUR VESSEL.

It does not depend on your passport. It does not depend on what country you are visiting.

If your boat is registered in Melmac, you are supposed to hold a valid Melmacquian license for the type/size of the vessel you operate AS STATED IN the regulations of this specific (flag) country.

At times no such license is required. Some countries allow one to operate their vessel while holding a different accredited license. And some do not.

This is private (pleasure craft, private use) use, not charter and not pro crew working for the owner.

b.
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Old 06-04-2017, 21:56   #40
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
The license you keep is AS REQUIRED BY THE FLAG (registration) COUNTRY OF YOUR VESSEL.

It does not depend on your passport. It does not depend on what country you are visiting.

If your boat is registered in Melmac, you are supposed to hold a valid Melmacquian license for the type/size of the vessel you operate AS STATED IN the regulations of this specific (flag) country.

At times no such license is required. Some countries allow one to operate their vessel while holding a different accredited license. And some do not.

This is private (pleasure craft, private use) use, not charter and not pro crew working for the owner.

b.
Wrong.

I suggest you stay clear of the Med; your luck will eventually run out.
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Old 06-04-2017, 22:19   #41
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

I'm trying to google this topic and it looks like there may be some confusion as to operating foreign flag private vessel vs chartering locally vs. EU residents owning/operating in EU. Here is an interesting read.

http://www.flowboat.ee/en/wp-content...PEAN-UNION.pdf
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Old 06-04-2017, 23:07   #42
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
"[I]f your vessel is used within the legal definition of a pleasure vessel and is either less than 24m (load line) length or less than 80GT, there is no requirement for you to have a certificate of competence to skipper the vessel in UK territorial waters or on the high seas."

Pleasure Craft Regulations | Regulations | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA


Notice that they say nothing about what license you need in the territorial waters of other countries. That depends on the requirements of the coastal state.
Thanks to the Dock Head.

This is also what I thought, is by purchasing a sørre powerboat, at 23 m, and because of a specific tax of 1.5 of the sum insured every year, so I register in the UK.

At the same time so I got rid of having to take Yachtmaster Ocean, but I was then told that the rules were changed, from January this year.

It was RYA who told it, so I could sejel freely in UK Waters, but if I went abroad, so there would be demand for skills? Certificates?

So your last sentence makes sense

Thanks
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Old 06-04-2017, 23:36   #43
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
The license you keep is AS REQUIRED BY THE FLAG (registration) COUNTRY OF YOUR VESSEL.

It does not depend on your passport. It does not depend on what country you are visiting.

If your boat is registered in Melmac, you are supposed to hold a valid Melmacquian license for the type/size of the vessel you operate AS STATED IN the regulations of this specific (flag) country.

At times no such license is required. Some countries allow one to operate their vessel while holding a different accredited license. And some do not.

This is private (pleasure craft, private use) use, not charter and not pro crew working for the owner.

b.
exactly how I learned it (a long time ago though)
(& unjust laws should be thwarted at every occasion!)
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Old 07-04-2017, 00:17   #44
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordboen View Post
Thanks to the Dock Head.

This is also what I thought, is by purchasing a sørre powerboat, at 23 m, and because of a specific tax of 1.5 of the sum insured every year, so I register in the UK.

At the same time so I got rid of having to take Yachtmaster Ocean, but I was then told that the rules were changed, from January this year.

It was RYA who told it, so I could sejel freely in UK Waters, but if I went abroad, so there would be demand for skills? Certificates?

So your last sentence makes sense

Thanks
Hej Nordboen - also Danish here,

The 1.5% tax levied by the Danish government on the insured value of the boat is a heavy burden. Be aware that it is illegal for a Dane, who is registered as living in Denmark, to register their boat in a foreign country. So registering your boat in the Uk means you have to move to the UK (if you are concerned with staying legal).

Dockhead, by the way, is a lawyer, so you can trust his interpertations of laws etc.

You should be aware that some European countries (and other countries) do require licenses, especially for very large motoryachts. The requirements will differ, but some of them are specific about the size of the engines and not necessarily the length of the boat.

A Danish Yachtskipper 1 exam isn't that terribly difficult - you can do the theorical part over the winter. I don't know where you live, but in Copnhagen, KAS runs a self study group each year which i excellent. Aarhus sailing club usually has a group running each year as does Kolding.

Getting the commercial endorsement (commercial ticket) takes some doing, but you don't need it to skipper a boat the size you are talking aobut unless you are going to get paid for it.

Send me a personal message here if you want more information (in danish)

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Old 07-04-2017, 00:40   #45
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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Hej Nordboen - also Danish here,

The 1.5% tax levied by the Danish government on the insured value of the boat is a heavy burden. Be aware that it is illegal for a Dane, who is registered as living in Denmark, to register their boat in a foreign country. So registering your boat in the Uk means you have to move to the UK (if you are concerned with staying legal).

Dockhead, by the way, is a lawyer, so you can trust his interpertations of laws etc.

You should be aware that some European countries (and other countries) do require licenses, especially for very large motoryachts. The requirements will differ, but some of them are specific about the size of the engines and not necessarily the length of the boat.

A Danish Yachtskipper 1 exam isn't that terribly difficult - you can do the theorical part over the winter. I don't know where you live, but in Copnhagen, KAS runs a self study group each year which i excellent. Aarhus sailing club usually has a group running each year as does Kolding.

Getting the commercial endorsement (commercial ticket) takes some doing, but you don't need it to skipper a boat the size you are talking aobut unless you are going to get paid for it.

Send me a personal message here if you want more information (in danish)

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