Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have some professional experience with insurance law.




"Necessary", legally will mean the letter of the law, so if you have a license which is informally tolerated but which does not fulfill the letter of the law, and you have an accident, and the insurance company wants to deny the claim, they will have a pretty good basis upon which to do it.





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I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but as discussed earlier in the thread there are some Med countries where even an ICC is not sufficient for the "letter of the law" (but almost always accepted).
So it would stand to reason that even with an ICC if an incident happens the insurance could claim the operator didn't have the required license for every area/country he sailed in.

I'm guessing, but I would assume if the insurance accepted the owners/operators qualification upon issuing the insurance they wouldn't deny a claim regardless if the owner had sailed into a country that requires an ICC (assuming of course it's not an excluded coverage area, etc.)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but as discussed earlier in the thread there are some Med countries where even an ICC is not sufficient for the "letter of the law" (but almost always accepted).
So it would stand to reason that even with an ICC if an incident happens the insurance could claim the operator didn't have the required license for every area/country he sailed in.

I'm guessing, but I would assume if the insurance accepted the owners/operators qualification upon issuing the insurance they wouldn't deny a claim regardless if the owner had sailed into a country that requires an ICC (assuming of course it's not an excluded coverage area, etc.)

Yes, that was actually MY point!!

From the point of view of insurance -- which I had not been thinking about until Polux's post -- the whole issue may look very different.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, that was actually MY point!!



From the point of view of insurance -- which I had not been thinking about until Polux's post -- the whole issue may look very different.

Best option is forget about licensing self-insure, and SAIL! . After all isn't it about getting away rules, lawyers, and other BS?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Best option is forget about licensing self-insure, and SAIL! . After all isn't it about getting away rules, lawyers, and other BS?

To each his own, but I, personally, would not sail without insurance :shudder:.

It would not be easy for me, to say the least, to replace my boat, in case of loss. And one of the problems is that the way the rules on collisions at sea work, it is almost impossible to avoid all liability, in case someone crashes into you. Even if you are run down from behind, you are still responsible for keeping a lookout behind and doing something at least to avoid the accident.

I'm afraid going to sea doesn't really get you away from "rules" and "other BS".

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

To each his own, but I, personally, would not sail without insurance :shudder:..

I'm afraid going to sea doesn't really get you away from "rules" and "other BS".

I agree that liability insurance is needed. I can't replace a mega yacht, nor cover the cost of someone getting hurt on/by my boat). But if your boat is a reasonable % of your total assets (which arguably it should be anyways). I think self-insuring it is a good choice. Remember this isn't "no insurance" you are after all paying the premiums to yourself and taking a calculated risk that as a prudent mariner you won't have to pay too many claims....

Your point is taken, but there are less rules and BS at sea than at any land based job I've ever held. Can't get rid of them all, but at least minimize....

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

I agree that liability insurance is needed. I can't replace a mega yacht, nor cover the cost of someone getting hurt on/by my boat). But if your boat is a reasonable % of your total assets (which arguably it should be anyways). I think self-insuring it is a good choice. Remember this isn't "no insurance" you are after all paying the premiums to yourself and taking a calculated risk that as a prudent mariner you won't have to pay too many claims....

Your point is taken, but there are less rules and BS at sea than at any land based job I've ever held. Can't get rid of them all, but at least minimize....

Well, it's not just the % of your assets, but % of LIQUID assets, and also the total quantum. Can you replace your boat, if you lose her? It would be painful for me.

And remember that unlike the case with a car -- you may get involved with an accident which is really not your fault, the way we think of "fault" in cars. But you may still be considerably responsible, at sea. Like being run down from behind.

So by taking only liability insurance and self-insuring the rest, you risk losing your boat for reasons which are quite beyond your own control.

YMMV, but I would not do that, even though with cars I mostly self-insured damage to my own vehicle, caused by my own fault, plus theft etc.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, it's not just the % of your assets, but % of LIQUID assets, and also the total quantum. Can you replace your boat, if you lose her? It would be painful for me.



And remember that unlike the case with a car -- you may get involved with an accident which is really not your fault, the way we think of "fault" in cars. But you may still be considerably responsible, at sea. Like being run down from behind.



So by taking only liability insurance and self-insuring the rest, you risk losing your boat for reasons which are quite beyond your own control.



YMMV, but I would not do that, even though with cars I mostly self-insured damage to my own vehicle, caused by my own fault, plus theft etc.

Hard to see accidents not your fault are any more prevalent at sea vs. on the road. Real difference between boat and car is the size of the outlay. But I think you have to be prepared to financially cover the cost of your boat anyways. 50% will be lost to depreciation in 10 years or less....

[Epicurean]

One other thing: Suppose you really injure someone and it is your fault. How responsible is it to tell someone who's life you may have significantly altered that you can't make them whole. It's one thing to gamble on your own life but I don't think it is fair to gamble on others'. I know nobody, especially sailors, likes to pay the premiums.

I think this is away from the original thread.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Hard to see accidents not your fault are any more prevalent at sea vs. on the road. .

It's very different, road and sea.

If you are driving along minding your own business and someone plows into the back of you, he is 100% at fault (barring some exceptional circumstance), and his liability insurance will cover your damage.

Sail along minding your own business and a powerboat plows into the back of you, you will have almost certainly have significant fault, possibly enough that you won't get a penny from his insurance.

Big difference in the COLREGS vs. traffic rules on land.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Epicurean

One other thing: Suppose you really injure someone and it is your fault. .



I think this is away from the original thread.

I favor liability insurance.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's very different, road and sea.



If you are driving along minding your own business and someone plows into the back of you, he is 100% at fault (barring some exceptional circumstance), and his liability insurance will cover your damage. .



Big difference in the COLREGS vs. traffic rules on land.

We're far off topic here. But I simply disagree. The state I'm in has no fault insurance. So if someone plows into me I pay. Also if someone hits your car parked, storm damage, hit and run, or they don't carry insurance (happens often) you're also picking up the bill.

I also think driving is inherently more dangerous than sailing (from a collision/equipment damage) perspective. Lot more cars, close quarters, high speeds. I don't have figures but it would be interesting to see insurance claim statistics for auto vs boats. If you exclude storm damage I bet boat claims are quite low.

I don't know where you sail, but I don't lose a lot of sleep getting run over from behind by a motor boat.

[surf_sail]

Also for insurance the risk adjusted claims will always be less than the premiums. So as long as you can cover the lumpy cash outlays it always is in your benefit to self insure. Especially if you are more prudent than average (self insurance also sharpens the mind on prudence)....

[Barra]

Maybe you guys should check out Topsail insurance next time. No clause on compliance with local licencing like polux mentions. Just an assessment of capability at policy issue.

I agree with the pro insurance camp for boats. Nothing at sea is as clear cut as on our roads.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Barra

Maybe you guys should check out Topsail insurance next time. No clause on compliance with local licencing like polux mentions. Just an assessment of capability at policy issue.

I agree with the pro insurance camp for boats. Nothing at sea is as clear cut as on our roads.

We're making the switch to Topsail this year after getting a quote last summer. Very disappointed with Pantaneus service and price. It took them six months to examine a small claim, then deny payment.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

We're far off topic here. But I simply disagree. The state I'm in has no fault insurance. So if someone plows into me I pay. Also if someone hits your car parked, storm damage, hit and run, or they don't carry insurance (happens often) you're also picking up the bill.

I also think driving is inherently more dangerous than sailing (from a collision/equipment damage) perspective. Lot more cars, close quarters, high speeds. I don't have figures but it would be interesting to see insurance claim statistics for auto vs boats. If you exclude storm damage I bet boat claims are quite low.

I don't know where you sail, but I don't lose a lot of sleep getting run over from behind by a motor boat.

Not really off topic in my opinion. Directly relevant to the question of what risks you take, by not complying strictly to license laws.

I don't really understand what argument you're making. If you're in a no-fault state, then that is much closer to the situation at sea. Would you even dream about going without insurance on a car, in a no-fault state? I guess it's even illegal to do so.

Likewise with boats -- you have risks way beyond those things which you can control. Quite like driving a car in a no-fault state. If you're OK with those risks -- that's your business -- I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I personally am not.