Ice and gas availability in Europe

[boatman61]

Portugal 23euro.. Spain 19euro..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Portugal 23euro.. Spain 19euro..

Italy: 28euro

[madsb]

Originally Posted by Sinfected

Hello,
I will be sailing around Europe from May till October (Poland, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy) and I wonder if packs of ice can be readilly obtained in these countries?

I assume you mean backs of ice cubes. In Denmark I have bought these in larger supermarkets (expensive), gas stations (expensive), McDonalds "Restaurants" (cheap) and Fish Mongers (cheap, sometimes free).

[Andy Copeland]

We usually found places that would refill our N. American aluminum propane bottles, but always carried a couple of Camping Gas bottles pls regulator in reserve. If you do get refills, for swafety remember that you can put Butane in Propane bottles, but never Propane in Butane bottles. Butane is stored at a far lower pressure and the bottles are not tested for Propane pressures.
If staying in a country for a long time the cheapest option is to rent a local bottle which is cheap and easy to exchange for a full one, then turn the bottle back in when you
leave.

[poiu]

With the appropriate pigtail you can decant from the Zanzibar Gas Corp to Calor or whatever. These people have a ton of stuff to help and to weigh your boat down.

Caravan/Motorhome Gas Pigtails

[Jim Cate]

3. Check with your stove maker, but most marine cookers will work on propane reasonably well, as well as butane. HOWEVER, you must not use the same regulators. The pressures are different.

Dunno about that, DH, for we have switched back and forth between propane and butane many times, using the same regulator. No problems note except a slight bit of sooting when using some butane fills.

Jim

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

HOWEVER, you must not use the same regulators. The pressures are different.

Same regulator in Europe , for a long time.

Google EN 12864 - Annex M, low pressure is set to 30mB for both propane and butane.

Here's a selection..

http://www.marinecooker.co.uk/gas_regulators.html

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[Sinfected]

Originally Posted by poiu

With the appropriate pigtail you can decant from the Zanzibar Gas Corp to Calor or whatever. These people have a ton of stuff to help and to weigh your boat down.

Caravan/Motorhome Gas Pigtails

Thank you all for replies.

I'm getting a bit lost here. Is it possible to fit an adaptor to Primus bottle so that it can be filled at Campingaz filling stations? If so, which one?

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Sinfected

Thank you all for replies.

I'm getting a bit lost here. Is it possible to fit an adaptor to Primus bottle so that it can be filled at Campingaz filling stations? If so, which one?

Sinfected

forget about refilling gas bottles in denmark (or germany or sweden) blue camping gaz bottles are what you find mostly.

when you say "ice" I'm assuming the ice you put in your drink - in denmark you can buy this in supermarkets but it is very very expensive. bars and restaurants generally will not sell any to you and fish mongers usually have salt water ice.

[boatman61]

The impression I'm getting is that N Europe has been much slower than the S Europe countries in getting their **** together on the cruising scene..
To the OP.. forget your current bottle and get 2 Camping Gas canister's of the type with the screw in carry handle on top and appropriate regulator.. total cost should only be around 120euro.. then its just a case of exchanging the bottles at a supplier.. of which there are many.. as for ice its readily available with many marinas having bagged ice for sale.. the locals buy bagged ice so its not difficult to find.

[Sinfected]

Guys, thank you very much for the information, it's been really helpful!

I agree that given that my Primus bottle are basically useless outside of Sweden, I'll invest into 2 Campingaz bottles.

With ice I meant ice bags to put into the refridgerator to keep it cool - we used these in Greece, it saves a lot of electricity and lasts quite long.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dunno about that, DH, for we have switched back and forth between propane and butane many times, using the same regulator. No problems note except a slight bit of sooting when using some butane fills.

Jim

Propane has a much higher pressure in the cylinder, and also needs more pressure (37mb vs 27mb) at the appliance, if you don't want to change jets. A butane regulator may not stand up to high cylinder pressure of propane.

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[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Propane has a much higher pressure in the cylinder, and also needs more pressure (37mb vs 27mb) at the appliance, if you don't want to change jets. A butane regulator may not stand up to high cylinder pressure of propane.

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In our case, we were using a propane reg on butane fills, so can't comment about the reverse situation. But, despite the theoretical requirement for either a jet or reg change, we have in fact used butane in our propane stove with no changes and no problems... many times.

Jim

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Propane has a much higher pressure in the cylinder, and also needs more pressure (37mb vs 27mb) at the appliance, if you don't want to change jets. A butane regulator may not stand up to high cylinder pressure of propane.

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... Which would not comply with the European regulations regarding regulators for seagoing boats....

EN 12864 annex M
This standard is for the design and manufacture of*
regulators for LPG cylinders to supply appliances installed*
in saltwater boats.
•Material in contact with the atmosphere shall be suitably
corrosion resistant. In particular this includes internal*
components above the diaphragm.
• The vent shall be on the edge of the diaphragm, in a
suitable location and of suitable size to drain water which*
may collect on the diaphragm.
• Shall incorporate an over-pressure relief device, the
vent shall be provided with a pipe connection facing*
downwards.
• Operating pressure specification to annex D.

PD 5482 - 3 2005*
Codes of practice for LPG installations in boats,*
yachts and other vessels: ‘Regulators must*
conform to EN 12864.’
BS EN ISO 10239 2000*
Small craft LPG installation regulation covering*
all vessels built after Nov 2000: ‘Regulators must*
incorporate a pressure relief valve.’
BS EN ISO 10239 2008*
Regulators installed in vessels used in a saltwater*
environment must conform to EN 12863 annex M.*
Systems must include a high pressure gauge.

Pressure is set to 30mB for either or a mixture of gasses...

EN 12864:2001 Annex D*for propane, butane and LPG mix,

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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by conachair

... Which would not comply with the European regulations regarding regulators for seagoing boats....



Pressure is set to 30mB for either or a mixture of gasses...

EN 12864:2001 Annex D*for propane, butane and LPG mix,

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Well, cylinder pressure obeys the laws of physics and doesn't care about European regulations (although some in Brussels would probably be surprised ). LPG is filled in liquid form (hence "L") and reaches its natural vapor pressure in the cylinder, which is about 5x higher for propane, than for butane.

You can use both gasses at the same regulated pressure, but butane is much denser (double the density of air) and has greater caloric value per unit of volume, so propane fed to the same appliance at the same pressure without changing jets will produce a very weak flame.

The reverse may not be a problem -- if you use butane in a system designed for propane, you will get much hotter flames.

The 5x higher vapor pressure of propane may blow out a regulator designed for butane. It's about 10 bars at 25C, a lot of pressure. Compared to just a little over a bar for butane.