Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[goboatingnow]

I still see no allowance that lets you only pay for the months you visit. I believe it's an annual tax. Even if you pay it monthly. Ie , one vist and you pay the whole sum.

It really screws <12m boats

Dave

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Anyone heard anything about folks that are just dropping in on the way west?

My suspicion is that for over 12 meters you will be able to pay a month at a time. And when you go - just leave and what can be done about it.....

If you are sub 12 meters, you will have to pay the lump sum.

How much they collect will be determined by the virulence of the Port Police. The usual "Come to Port Police" will not get much collected. Port Police, even with just port dues, really need to become proactive in collection ie they should go to the boats and collect the money directly. They would earn their keep at a stroke.

However, I think nothing will change in that respect.

I for one will be worried about interpretation - it will be mid may before I get there, and I hope that I won't find an officious port police will have impounded my boat for arrears!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

My suspicion is that for over 12 meters you will be able to pay a month at a time. And when you go - just leave and what can be done about it.....

If you are sub 12 meters, you will have to pay the lump sum.

How much they collect will be determined by the virulence of the Port Police. The usual "Come to Port Police" will not get much collected. Port Police, even with just port dues, really need to become proactive in collection ie they should go to the boats and collect the money directly. They would earn their keep at a stroke.

However, I think nothing will change in that respect.

I for one will be worried about interpretation - it will be mid may before I get there, and I hope that I won't find an officious port police will have impounded my boat for arrears!

There is nothing that's says you pay for the months visited. In fact it's specifically says no get no rebate on leaving, It's an annual tax which for over 12m you pay by the month , ie even if you then leave you still have to pay the tax. ( ps you think the tax people will let a visiting cruiser pay by the month lol )

'Otherwise it utterly screws <12m boats.

Dave

[athene]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There is nothing that's says you pay for the months visited. In fact it's specifically says no get no rebate on leaving, It's an annual tax which for over 12m you pay by the month , ie even if you then leave you still have to pay the tax. ( ps you think the tax people will let a visiting cruiser pay by the month lol )

'Otherwise it utterly screws <12m boats.

Dave

The relevant paragraph is:

d. With regard to vessels of a total length of over twelve (12) meters, it shall be as follows: i) one hundred (100) Euros per meter per year, calculated from the first meter or ii) ten (10) Euros per meter per month, calculated from the first meter.

You may be right in your interpretation, but it seems perfectly rational to take the view that, if you're just visiting for a couple of weeks, you can pay for the month in which you visit. I think that unless the port police are given contrary guidance they'll take the same view too.

The alternative view, that, for example, all Italian boats over 12 metres will have to pay for a full year at their first port of call in the Ionian would simply eliminate them as a Summer source of revenue. I don't believe the Greek Government is that short-sighted.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by athene

The relevant paragraph is:

d. With regard to vessels of a total length of over twelve (12) meters, it shall be as follows: i) one hundred (100) Euros per meter per year, calculated from the first meter or ii) ten (10) Euros per meter per month, calculated from the first meter.

You may be right in your interpretation, but it seems perfectly rational to take the view that, if you're just visiting for a couple of weeks, you can pay for the month in which you visit. I think that unless the port police are given contrary guidance they'll take the same view too.

The alternative view, that, for example, all Italian boats over 12 metres will have to pay for a full year at their first port of call in the Ionian would simply eliminate them as a Summer source of revenue. I don't believe the Greek Government is that short-sighted.

The monthly fee is the " calculation " ie how you pay. It's the same in many countries that implement taxes but allow you to pay by the month. The law is clear that there is no rebate for time not spent in Greece.

Yes I agree , Italians will have to pay the annual tax even if they visit for a few days. , they certainly will of they are under 12m , so why not for over 12m.


But my understanding is that the will be a concession for short term visits.
Dave

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There is nothing that's says you pay for the months visited. In fact it's specifically says no get no rebate on leaving, It's an annual tax which for over 12m you pay by the month , ie even if you then leave you still have to pay the tax. ( ps you think the tax people will let a visiting cruiser pay by the month lol )

'Otherwise it utterly screws <12m boats.

Dave

Dave - ok , lets say they will require all visiting boats to pay 12 months up front.

So if you arrive in June - you will not get your 30% discount as you should have paid in January? AND it runs for the calender year? Not seen yet where it says it runs for the calendar year - but obviously for boats already in Greece, that will effectively be the case.

I can imagine some pretty brutal scenes at Port Police and I frankly feel rather sorry for them.

So there are still some obvious gaps in the legislation - which apparently will be filled in by the Minister for Shipping and the Aegean sea. (who will no doubt make up the rules as he goes along - so there is a chance that his interpretation will be more practical.

However, I have not seen in the legislation anything that says its an annual tax or thats its a calandar year tax.

Lots still to understand....

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

The New cruising tax Law/Budget and all the other Greek taxes and budget Proposals for 2014/2015 has now been passed with the Greek Govt voting in parliament on Sunday 8/12/13 which means now they get also there next tranche of Bail out money

I believe that the bill is contained within the "future of the Hellenic Defense Systems (EAS)" as clause 13 and 14 and it is not part of the Budget - although it has to form part of the Troika bailout approvals.

So perhaps it is not yet voted on

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

Dave - ok , lets say they will require all visiting boats to pay 12 months up front.

So if you arrive in June - you will not get your 30% discount as you should have paid in January? AND it runs for the calender year? Not seen yet where it says it runs for the calendar year - but obviously for boats already in Greece, that will effectively be the case.

I can imagine some pretty brutal scenes at Port Police and I frankly feel rather sorry for them.

So there are still some obvious gaps in the legislation - which apparently will be filled in by the Minister for Shipping and the Aegean sea. (who will no doubt make up the rules as he goes along - so there is a chance that his interpretation will be more practical.

However, I have not seen in the legislation anything that says its an annual tax or thats its a calandar year tax.

Lots still to understand....

"2. The SSD is calculated on a yearly basis and applies from January 1st until December 31st of each year and is determined as follows:"


I think that is very explicit and clear. Note calculated versus how you then pay the subsequent bill.

Dave

[athene]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

However, I have not seen in the legislation anything that says its an annual tax or thats its a calandar year tax.

Lots still to understand....

Meanwhile, amidst the uncertainty hundreds of yachts are making their plans to leave Greece (like me) and hundreds more are planning to cruise other areas next year.

I don't know of any other country in the Med (unless someone out there knows different?) that tries to extract over a thousand Euros from even moderately-sized visiting yachts - leaving aside the issue of possible monthly payment. Even Croatia and Montenegro allow payment by length of stay and both charge considerably less for annual stays.

At a stroke, Greece has gone from being one of the cheapest Med countries to cruise to one of the most expensive. I don't accept the conventional comparison of Croatia, because although it's a lot more expensive to cruise on a day by day basis, you're paying for the excellent facilities there, not a government impost.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by athene

Meanwhile, amidst the uncertainty hundreds of yachts are making their plans to leave Greece (like me) and hundreds more are planning to cruise other areas next year.

I don't know of any other country in the Med (unless someone out there knows different?) that tries to extract over a thousand Euros from even moderately-sized visiting yachts - leaving aside the issue of possible monthly payment. Even Croatia and Montenegro allow payment by length of stay and both charge considerably less for annual stays.

At a stroke, Greece has gone from being one of the cheapest Med countries to cruise to one of the most expensive. I don't accept the conventional comparison of Croatia, because although it's a lot more expensive to cruise on a day by day basis, you're paying for the excellent facilities there, not a government impost.

True but no other country in Europe is so financially screwed and its desperate for Troika money . Greece is a basket case. Rational thought has left the stage.

Dave

[beneteau-500]

it will be interesting to see how many boats <12m will sail through the Corinth canal with cost of cruising tax and canal charges its going to be an expensive summer for some

[athene]

Interesting observation from a nearby thread on the new Croatian cruising tax. Our Oyster 435 will cost us HRK 365 (around a Euro a week) to cruise Croatia next year. If we stayed in Greece it would cost us 25 times as much. Even with the addition of the so-called sojourn tax, it's still only €4 a week in Croatia against €25 a week for Greece.

Since we only spend six months on the hard in Preveza, we probably couldn't prove that we were 'permanently based' in Greece and therefore wouldn't qualify for the 30 per cent discount.

Montenegro (probably hitherto the most expensive destination in the Med from the taxation standpoint) currently charges €750 a year for our size of yacht, so Greece is still way ahead of the pack.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Alenka

The SSD is imposed on all the aforementioned boats and small vessels, irrespective of their flag, which sail through, dock or anchor in Greek territorial waters.

Based on the current 6 mile territorial limit (I believe) it will be difficult to leave Turkey without being tax by the Greek coast guard



and if the 12 mile is enforced by Greece, it will be a long sail hugging the coast until there are some international waters open to the rest of the Med

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by athene

Since we only spend six months on the hard in Preveza, we probably couldn't prove that we were 'permanently based' in Greece and therefore wouldn't qualify for the 30 per cent discount.

.

If you spend 6 months on the hard, I think you will come under the "dock" heading (who knows!), so you will have to pay it. However I think the 30% discount - and providing proof of being in Greek waters is a red herring. The 30% is to give a discount for early payment, so they wont care if you are not there - in fact they say - they wont refund you.

However, you will get stuck for it as you wont get out there till after its starts - discounts apparently are only applicable for those who pay in December 2013 for Jan to dec 2014 as it is written at the moment!

So try to pay it now and see what happens!!!

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Alenka

2. The SSD is calculated on a yearly basis and applies from January 1st until December 31st of each year and is determined as follows:

For boats that arrive late in the year and choose to winter ing Greece, I wonder how they will be treated.

It certainly does not sound like they will get 12 months from the day they arrive and pay.

It sounds to me that they will have to pay for 12 months at the start of the year, but will they also pay the full fee when they arrived, or just the months until the end of the year. And how will <12 & >12 be treated.