Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by hoppy

For boats that arrive late in the year and choose to winter ing Greece, I wonder how they will be treated.

It certainly does not sound like they will get 12 months from the day they arrive and pay.

It sounds to me that they will have to pay for 12 months at the start of the year, but will they also pay the full fee when they arrived, or just the months until the end of the year. And how will <12 & >12 be treated.

The law makes no provision, but it does provide for the Director of Shipping and the Aegean Sea to make up the rules for collection. Lets hope he is pragmatic and realistic. -

Perhaps our best efforts to make this sensible is to lobby him.
List of Ministers for Shipping and Aegean[edit]

Kostis Mousouroulis appointed 21 June 2012 - New Democracy party

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

If you spend 6 months on the hard, I think you will come under the "dock" heading (who knows!), so you will have to pay it. However I think the 30% discount - and providing proof of being in Greek waters is a red herring. The 30% is to give a discount for early payment, so they wont care if you are not there - in fact they say - they wont refund you.

However, you will get stuck for it as you wont get out there till after its starts - discounts apparently are only applicable for those who pay in December 2013 for Jan to dec 2014 as it is written at the moment!

So try to pay it now and see what happens!!!

The €10 per meter per month sound more like a payment plan for the full 12 month fee rather than a way to make a 12m+ boat cheaper than <12m over shorter periods, but who knows with those wacky Greeks

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

The law makes no provision, but it does provide for the Director of Shipping and the Aegean Sea to make up the rules for collection. Lets hope he is pragmatic and realistic. -

Perhaps our best efforts to make this sensible is to lobby him.

The rules he makes will probably depend on what boats he and his family and friends own

[Astrid]

Hoppy,

Would not a tax be in violation of right of innocent passage--see article 26 in the following link:

Convention on the Law of the Sea: Part II, Section 3, A

[jckb]

Food for thought below.

1. Innocent passage allows you to transit through Greek waters without any charges.

2. Arguably, it also allows you a stop en route to refuel, or take on water and food - although it may be required that should only occur within a customs controlled zone.

3. For boats over 12m, an option is to pay for one month periods. These are not stage payments for a one year commitment; otherwise, the earlier months would have to be collected.

4. Also, consider the arrival of a 12.1m boat in July. He pays for a month (€121), carries the receipt, then departs back to Turkey or Italy just before his month is finished. How would Greece collect the remainder due?

5. Both translations I have seen make it clear that this tax is payable for boats in the water (moored, anchored, docked or voyaging are the various words used). Dock, in American usage, is a place boats tie up to when afloat. Thus boats on shore being built, repaired, rotting away or laid up (how do you differentiate?) do not have to prove they are tax paid. For UK residents, this is equivalent of declaring that your car is off road, and therefore does not have to pay circulation tax.

6. If you accept the above points, a 12.1m boat which launches in May and pulls out at the end of September will pay 5 months; €605. An 11.1m boat will pay €400 - with the option of a longer sailing season if it wishes.

7. The Cruising Association (latest news) will be lobbying (among many other issues to do with the implementation of this tax) for the 30% discount option to apply for >12m boats which, on arrival, or on launch, offer to pay for the full year - €847 for 12.1m.

8. Your marinas and boatyards are fighting your case in Greece strongly. They have already made the main case, that their businesses and related businesses which serve visiting yachts, will be badly affected by yachts departing to other countries. In the greater scale of things, this argument has been dismissed.

9. Give them more evidence. Email them if you already use a yard. If you were thinking of going to Greece, but are now havering, email a yard you might have considered using, ask for clarification of any rules unclear to you, then respond with a "well , we won't come unless . . . " email.

10. Keeping this all in proportion, if you play the discounts, this adds about 5% to your boating budget in Greece. Boating budgets vary widely from country to country say 20% - more if you use marinas. Frying pan into fire?

11. Euro exchange rates have just shifted from 1.15 to 1.20 to the £. And the Greek cost of living has gone down by about 3% over the last year - forced down because the locals can't pay the prices . . .

JimB

[athene]

Thanks, Jim - a masterly summary. I would be personally delighted if the Cruising Association lobbied for a six-month delay in implementation until, say, 1 July so that foreign yachts currently laid up in Greece and others planning to visit have the time to make other plans if they wish. It seems unfair to catch foreign yachts in a net intended to raise taxes from Greek resident boat owners.

I would even send the CA the direct debit authority that has been sitting in my in-tray for the past six weeks!

[beneteau-500]

Jimb

one thing is new cruising tax does not expel,

Is if the port authority's will continue to charge port taxes and in some case's the old 88 euro cent taxes which you had to go to a tax office and pay and collect the forms for the port authority's as far as i can see and the info that i got from the guys at Zea marina last week is that these charges are still vaild and no legislation has been passed to remove them

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by jckb

Food for thought below.

1. Innocent passage allows you to transit through Greek waters without any charges.

2. Arguably, it also allows you a stop en route to refuel, or take on water and food - although it may be required that should only occur within a customs controlled zone.

3. For boats over 12m, an option is to pay for one month periods. These are not stage payments for a one year commitment; otherwise, the earlier months would have to be collected.

4. Also, consider the arrival of a 12.1m boat in July. He pays for a month (€121), carries the receipt, then departs back to Turkey or Italy just before his month is finished. How would Greece collect the remainder due?

5. Both translations I have seen make it clear that this tax is payable for boats in the water (moored, anchored, docked or voyaging are the various words used). Dock, in American usage, is a place boats tie up to when afloat. Thus boats on shore being built, repaired, rotting away or laid up (how do you differentiate?) do not have to prove they are tax paid. For UK residents, this is equivalent of declaring that your car is off road, and therefore does not have to pay circulation tax.

6. If you accept the above points, a 12.1m boat which launches in May and pulls out at the end of September will pay 5 months; €605. An 11.1m boat will pay €400 - with the option of a longer sailing season if it wishes.

7. The Cruising Association (latest news) will be lobbying (among many other issues to do with the implementation of this tax) for the 30% discount option to apply for >12m boats which, on arrival, or on launch, offer to pay for the full year - €847 for 12.1m.

8. Your marinas and boatyards are fighting your case in Greece strongly. They have already made the main case, that their businesses and related businesses which serve visiting yachts, will be badly affected by yachts departing to other countries. In the greater scale of things, this argument has been dismissed.

9. Give them more evidence. Email them if you already use a yard. If you were thinking of going to Greece, but are now havering, email a yard you might have considered using, ask for clarification of any rules unclear to you, then respond with a "well , we won't come unless . . . " email.

10. Keeping this all in proportion, if you play the discounts, this adds about 5% to your boating budget in Greece. Boating budgets vary widely from country to country say 20% - more if you use marinas. Frying pan into fire?

11. Euro exchange rates have just shifted from 1.15 to 1.20 to the £. And the Greek cost of living has gone down by about 3% over the last year - forced down because the locals can't pay the prices . . .

JimB

Ah - its you Jim - hadn't recognised your cruiser sign on ....jckb..

I am with you on this, except for one point - I cannot see them allowing boats on dry land to not be charged. But I hope you are right as I have already altered my contract for next year, moving from Leros Marina to Agmar marine - I will save around €1000 euros being out of the water for July August and November to May partly by spending considerably less on my berthing costs. Perhaps I will now be able to frequent the tavernas more than planned!

I feel sorry for Leros Marina who are a very good bunch. There must be loads of people not making a decision right now, at a time when they would normally be renewing for next year and getting 6 months money in advance - it will be knocking the hell out of their cash flow, so no doubt they will pull back on their investment in the marina to balance the cash flow - which is just not what is needed for Greece.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by jckb

Food for thought below.


3. For boats over 12m, an option is to pay for one month periods. These are not stage payments for a one year commitment; otherwise, the earlier months would have to be collected.

4. Also, consider the arrival of a 12.1m boat in July. He pays for a month (€121), carries the receipt, then departs back to Turkey or Italy just before his month is finished. How would Greece collect the remainder due?

JimB

Jim -- maybe it is my american logic or lack there of or that course in fortran programming i took in grad school - but this just does not seem logical --
if a 12m shows up they have to pay 400eu for the month and the 12.1m pays 121eu -- not that the greeks have been know for great logic but someplace along the line i would have thought they would have throught this through on collecting the fees for the entire year --
maybe some sort of credit card or bank draft or something that can not be cancelled
then again maybe they did not

we were going to greece next year and not winter over but end up in turkey for the winter before sailing the greek islands the following year
now we are not until this gets settled a bit

so if we do not have a marina to email who do we email on our intentions - we will stop by the greek embassy in tunis and ask a couple of innocent questions and then let them know what our plans are
if you have an email please let us know
thanks

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by jckb

3. For boats over 12m, an option is to pay for one month periods. These are not stage payments for a one year commitment; otherwise, the earlier months would have to be collected.

4. Also, consider the arrival of a 12.1m boat in July. He pays for a month (€121), carries the receipt, then departs back to Turkey or Italy just before his month is finished. How would Greece collect the remainder due?

I don't think the translated document clearly enough defines how the monthly rate works. It seems illogical for the intention to give an option for larger boats to pay less than smaller boats over a short period. I strongly suspect that it is indented as a way of spreading out the pain of a €1200+ bill over the year and therefore only realistically available to people with Greek bank accounts.

Originally Posted by jckb

5. Both translations I have seen make it clear that this tax is payable for boats in the water (moored, anchored, docked or voyaging are the various words used). Dock, in American usage, is a place boats tie up to when afloat. Thus boats on shore being built, repaired, rotting away or laid up (how do you differentiate?) do not have to prove they are tax paid. For UK residents, this is equivalent of declaring that your car is off road, and therefore does not have to pay circulation tax.

Dry dock is out of the water. Remember this is a translation of the law, not a carefully worded English document. Whilst in english docked usually means in the water and dry docked for out, it is possible that the Greek word used in the official document does not differentiate between the two meanings.

Originally Posted by jckb

7. The Cruising Association (latest news) will be lobbying (among many other issues to do with the implementation of this tax) for the 30% discount option to apply for >12m boats which, on arrival, or on launch, offer to pay for the full year - €847 for 12.1m.

hahahaha Do you think the Greeks will listen to the CA. after all, delaying the implementation will mean taxable boats will leave and they lose money. If the same boats are forced to pay the tax for 2014, then they would probably cruise Greece for one last time before wintering in Turkey, Croatia or where ever.

If I pay for 12 months I will not be rushing out and will cruise in Greece whether or not I decide to leave. I will put money into the pockets for Greek shop, restaurant and any others who provide me with goods and services and I argument with them about the tax.

Personally I think the most likely this will be delayed if some German cruising lobby can convince Angi to speak to the Greeks about delaying it or if there is legal action taken.

Realistically I can't see it being delayed and the best we can hope for is the CA and any other interested parties pushing the minister to clarify his interpretation of the rules...

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Alenka

d. In case during the relevant inspection by the competent Harbor, Customs or Tax Authorities it is ascertained that the SSD has not been paid, the boat or the small vessel will not be allowed to depart until the SSD is paid in accordance with the provisions of sections a’ and b’ of the present. Every time it is ascertained that the SSD has not been paid, a fine is imposed, which is equal to one hundred percent (100%) of the annually corresponding SSD, without any discount.

To me this is potentially the most worrying aspect of the law and what the CA and others should be pressing the Greeks on.

It's not totally clear elsewhere, but it implies that the payment must be made in December for boats residing in Greece and therefore if the Greeks want to maximise their income, they can fine everyone who pays the SSD after Jan 1st if they cannot prove that they just arrived in Greece

[goboatingnow]

Jim, its misreading the translation to suggest that the 12m+ can pay by the month. The introduction provided a few posts ago, which I believe is a better translation that the CA one, clearly states its an annual tax. Hence it cant be both a monthly and an annually tax.

Furthermore , its entirely illogical to suggest that a 11.5m boat has to pay for a year and a 12m can pay by the month.

My understanding is the monthly payment is a tax payment option, not a tax calculation option.

As to the CA, please don't make me laugh, it has as much power as a nats sting. Even in the UK its regarded as a joke


Greece has far bigger fish to fry then boaters, you think it really cares about a few foreign cruisers, when it has the problems it has on the scale it has.


Dave

[athene]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Furthermore , its entirely illogical to suggest that a 11.5m boat has to pay for a year and a 12m can pay by the month.

My understanding is the monthly payment is a tax payment option, not a tax calculation option.

Dave

There's very little logic about this new tax anyway, so I don't think that it's at all inconsistent that boats under 12 metres (which includes the majority of Greek-owned vessels) pay an annual charge whereas visiting yachts (the majority of which are over 12 metres) enjoy the concession of paying monthly for the length of their stay.

What is patently absurd is the idea that any yacht over 12 metres immediately becomes liable for a charge of €1200 upwards on entering Greek waters, no matter for how short a period. I don't think the Greeks are that determined to drive bigger vessels out of Greek waters.

In any case, none of us can offer anything at this stage but conjecture. It's down to the Greek authorities to clarify the operation of this tax and the port police and tax offices to implement it as fairly as they can. All we can do is wait for clarification and meanwhile, as Jim suggests, apply what little pressure we can through marinas, boatyards and other businesses depending on the yachting community to ameliorate the impact of this tax.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by athene

Thanks, Jim - a masterly summary. I would be personally delighted if the Cruising Association lobbied for a six-month delay in implementation until, say, 1 July so that foreign yachts currently laid up in Greece and others planning to visit have the time to make other plans if they wish. It seems unfair to catch foreign yachts in a net intended to raise taxes from Greek resident boat owners.

We're asking for "a period of grace" or "permission to depart without payment" in order to "appease the understandable anger of visiting yachtsmen forced into an unplanned expenditure"

I would even send the CA the direct debit authority that has been sitting in my in-tray for the past six weeks!

The more subscriptions we have, the more we can work on your behalf.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

Is if the port authority's will continue to charge port taxes and in some case's the old 88 euro cent taxes which you had to go to a tax office and pay and collect the forms for the port authority's as far as i can see and the info that i got from the guys at Zea marina last week is that these charges are still vaild and no legislation has been passed to remove them

A majority of the CA members I've spoken with over the last few weeks believe that if this was a substitute for current port police fee collection activities (or lack of!) it would be acceptable, and we should then support the tax.

Some people, of course, do not agree with this idea, since they've never paid port police in the past, and they don't want to start now.