Greek Tax coming?

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by NornaBiron

It is not necessary for cruisers to have a large budget and it is insulting to infer that those that manage on less are complainers.

Your reaction is understandable but do not forget that people’s comments are more a reflection of themselves rather than having anything to do with you. It simply speaks for their state of mind. I am learning (finally) that when encountering these personality types, it is best to smile politely and simply keep walking cause there is nothing there for me to learn from (ok except as an example of what traps to avoid so I don’t end up saying something so ignorant as that :-)

[crankysailor]

By the way, I actually admire folks making cruising work on a budget. It is damn hard. I am lucky to have a good job and am slowly working my way to improve my financial security (if such a thing exists). But those with vulnerable finances who still choose to risk what little they have to stay true to their dream.. It takes balls.

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

By the way, I actually admire folks making cruising work on a budget. It is damn hard. I am lucky to have a good job and am slowly working my way to improve my financial security (if such a thing exists). But those with vulnerable finances who still choose to risk what little they have to stay true to their dream.. It takes balls.

And creativity!

[Barra]

Greece is awesome!

Having sold my boat this year (in greece) its the one country in the med i know im going to miss next year. The rest are "been there done that" really but greece gets in your blood.

A few hundred euros more to try and rain in the local boats tax dodge is a small price to pay and shouldnt dissuade you one bit IMHO!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Barra

Greece is awesome!

Having sold my boat this year (in greece) its the one country in the med i know im going to miss next year. The rest are "been there done that" really but greece gets in your blood.

A few hundred euros more to try and rain in the local boats tax dodge is a small price to pay and shouldnt dissuade you one bit IMHO!

We look forward to spending the next three summers in Greece and will gladly pay the cruising tax if it becomes necessary. Croatia presently has a similar tax and we find Croatia to be an absolute cruising paradise with so much to see at less than half the price of the the US. Nowhere in America could we anchor continuously in so many beautiful protected coves without being asked to pay or move on. Our total cost for all moorings and tax in Croatia during four months was less than $500 USD for a 16 meter boat. Our six month fresh water slip rental fee in Italy, just east of Venice is only 1000 euros in total (150 per month). Try to find that anywhere in the US, plus the quality of things to see and the marinas are unsurpassed.

The cruising fee is a bargain, and half liter beers are only 53 cents.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Try to find that anywhere in the US, plus the quality of things to see and the marinas are unsurpassed.

The cruising fee is a bargain, and half liter beers are only 53 cents.

I am glad that you find Greece to be a bargain compared to your home land. It might surprise you though that there are other people on this planet who are *not* from the U.S. and for whom this comparison might be interesting but irrelevant.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

I am glad that you find Greece to be a bargain compared to your home land. It might surprise you though that there are other people on this planet who are *not* from the U.S. and for whom this comparison might be interesting but irrelevant.

But that's sort of the point, everything's relative to something else! Some think Greece is cheap due to their cruising in more expensive countries, some think Greece is expensive due to their cruising in cheaper countries,.... it is what it is! I'd love to be paying Greece prices right now, cost $500 aud to renew my visa today in Seychelles. It's all relative.
Ps. Did I mention a cappacino is $8!!!!!!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

I am glad that you find Greece to be a bargain compared to your home land. It might surprise you though that there are other people on this planet who are *not* from the U.S. and for whom this comparison might be interesting but irrelevant.

I don’t really understand your cranky obsession with my posts on this thread. If you can’t afford Greece, then stay in countries you find more affordable... or earn more money. It’s really that simple.

[Jason Flare]

To me the issue is that taxes are a coercive interaction in that if you don’t pay them you will be hauled off to jail while spending money on draft beers and cappuccinos are voluntary interactions and choosing not to has no consequence.

Is Greece raising the tax to keep people from visiting the country and voluntarily spending money there because, except for a few exceptions, that seems to be what’s happening just in this thread alone.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

To me the issue is that taxes are a coercive interaction in that if you don’t pay them you will be hauled off to jail while spending money on draft beers and cappuccinos are voluntary interactions and choosing not to has no consequence.

Is Greece raising the tax to keep people from visiting the country and voluntarily spending money there because, except for a few exceptions, that seems to be what’s happening just in this thread alone.

Greece, Croatia, Montenegro, Italy, the US or any other country can do whatever their government wants to raise money via taxes, fees or whatever.... it’s their country.

If visitors don’t like it... tough. Go someplace else.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

To me the issue is that taxes are a coercive interaction in that if you don’t pay them you will be hauled off to jail while spending money on draft beers and cappuccinos are voluntary interactions and choosing not to has no consequence.

Is Greece raising the tax to keep people from visiting the country and voluntarily spending money there because, except for a few exceptions, that seems to be what’s happening just in this thread alone.

No, there are many European countries that charge you a small amount for each day you will be on the country. It has some logic, you are using infrastructures that were built with the money of the citizens and you are asked to pay, even if symbolically, for their use.
http://www.etoa.org/events/policy/re.../tourist-taxes

Normally it is about 1 to 3 Euros a day for person. On most countries you pay that with the hotel bill (included on the price).


The reason they gave is to get rid of all the boats that are half abandoned on ports, unfinished marinas or at buoys on sheltered coves. That is something that is understandable and that I applaud.

What makes no sense is that the original intention has been completely subverted by a law modification on behalf of Greek marinas: now the tax will be paid only when the boats are out of marinas, when they are cruising.

I suppose that the time that is passed on a buoy or at a port will not count too and that will result that Greece will continue to be full of derelict boats crowding the ports and buoys.

The other thing that does not make sense is that instead of charging a fixed amount for meter they created a scale it does not make any sense, as it is pointed out on the CA post:

https://www.theca.org.uk/news/greek_tax_update_nov_2017

It is a progressive scale with regular steps except between these two steps: 10 to 12 and 12 to 13 where the price raises 3x.

A boat with 12.01meter will pay 3 times more than a boat with 11.99 while a boat with 15m will only pay more 25% than a boat with 12.01 meter.

This has not any logic and that's the main point of disagreement with CA that has proposed a more gradual scale without success till now.

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by Polux

No, there are many European countries that charge you a small amount for each day you will be on the country. It has some logic, you are using infrastructures that were built with the money of the citizens and you are asked to pay, even if symbolically, for their use.
Tourist Taxes

Normally it is about 1 to 3 Euros a day for person. On most countries you pay that with the hotel bill (included on the price).


The reason they gave is to get rid of all the boats that are half abandoned on ports, unfinished marinas or at buoys on sheltered coves. That is something that is understandable and that I applaud.

What makes no sense is that the original intention has been completely subverted by a law modification on behalf of Greek marinas: now the tax will be paid only when the boats are out of marinas, when they are cruising.

I suppose that the time that is passed on a buoy or at a port will not count too and that will result that Greece will continue to be full of derelict boats crowding the ports and buoys.

The other thing that does not make sense is that instead of charging a fixed amount for meter they created a scale it does not make any sense, as it is pointed out on the CA post:

https://www.theca.org.uk/news/greek_tax_update_nov_2017

It is a progressive scale with regular steps except between these two steps: 10 to 12 and 12 to 13 where the price raises 3x.

A boat with 12.01meter will pay 3 times more than a boat with 11.99 while a boat with 15m will only pay more 25% than a boat with 12.01 meter.

This has not any logic and that's the main point of disagreement with CA that has proposed a more gradual scale without success till now.

I'm pretty sure that when the law was originally introduced it was designed to ensure that all boat owners in Greek waters pay some form of tax. There are many many superyachts in Greece that are owned by Greeks and registered elsewhere as a tax dodge. I'm pretty sure that was who the tax was aimed at but in order for the tax to be introduced it has to cover everyone in EU law.

I, like many, have no qualms about paying my share but I object to my share being so much more than the person next to me on a boat that is smaller but still has the same number of berths on it. And that inequality is what most people, including the CA, are concerned about.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by NornaBiron

I'm pretty sure that when the law was originally introduced it was designed to ensure that all boat owners in Greek waters pay some form of tax. There are many many superyachts in Greece that are owned by Greeks and registered elsewhere as a tax dodge. I'm pretty sure that was who the tax was aimed at but in order for the tax to be introduced it has to cover everyone in EU law.

I, like many, have no qualms about paying my share but I object to my share being so much more than the person next to me on a boat that is smaller but still has the same number of berths on it. And that inequality is what most people, including the CA, are concerned about.

The official reason was this: "The new levy, aiming to reduce the number of boats docked at ports"

But probably you are right regarding the hidden intentions but that is not a reason to give up on the "official" intention, that was a commendable one

I agree with you about size and discrepancy in taxes but this has nothing to do with the number of people aboard, they call it a luxury tax that has to do with the value of the boat : "Boat owners are required to pay an annual 13 percent special luxury tax on the value of their vehicle."
New Levy to Burden Watercraft Owners Docking in Greece - GTP Headlines

Off course then older boats should pay less than newer ones and motorboats more than sailing boats and that is not the case. As usual on Greece in what regards laws, a mess!!!

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Polux

The official reason was this: "The new levy, aiming to reduce the number of boats docked at ports"

If that is the case, they actually implement the tax and it has the effect of removing boats dumped at free town quays, then it is a fantastic tax that should be greatly appreciated by all cruisers with the exception of the tight arsed boat owners who ruin it for for cruisers who are on their boats wanting tie up at the town quay and spend money in the local bars

I grew to HATE the boat owners who would leave their boats permanently tied up at town quays when they are back in their home countries, causing me to have to anchor off.

It got to the point when sights did not make me sad but instead makes me laugh...

Lefkas town quay..




If I was still in Greece I'd be regretting that I didn't use the hull length (11.98m) when filling in LOA when I registered her, as the previous French & British regos had, instead I used the 12.2m LOA from the manual, but then again, even at 8euro/m per month, it's nothing to worry about when you consider the "value" of Greek cruising grounds and how little you can spend if you want to be on a tight budget (many free towns and always a place to anchor nearby)

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Polux

"Boat owners are required to pay an annual 13 percent special luxury tax on the value of their vehicle."

now THAT IS CRAZY! What's the value of an average 5-10year old 30'-er, 30-40'000€? Even if valued to 20k€ by the authorities, this means ~3000EUR/year just in taxes. Not for a 16m, for a 9m boat. Can't recall any civilized country where property is taxed that extreme. I understand that this is for greek flagged boats but the locals don't have much of a choice, do they?